• DCT Build Part VII - Taking the BMW E92 M3 DCT to the next level, 800+ wheel horsepower clutch disc capacity

      You have seen the DCT taken apart, what it looks like inside, worn clutch discs, and brand new higher capacity clutch discs made. The new discs handle 600+ and 700+ whp respectively. With my power goals, SSP has decided to build a clutch pack that is beyond anything developed at this time for the DCT. What is the power goal? Well, it is beyond what is currently available and SSP is currently developing a clutch disc pack capable of over 800 wheel horsepower.

      How is this being done?

      The current clutch discs are of a thicker material than the stock discs. However, the stock clutch pack has 9 discs in it. By increasing the number of clutch discs they are going to increase the maximum torque capacity. By going to a thicker material and increasing the total number of discs to 11, the DCT in the BMW M3 will be taken to a level no one previously thought was possible. This is going to be similar to the GTR 1000 hp clutch setup by SSP (pictured) but the GTR uses more clutch discs albeit smaller, thinner discs.

      What else is being done and how much time will it take?

      The DCT is going to receive a cooling system based on what SSP has done with the GTR's. This will be a DCT specific application and will be great for the guys who track. No more overheats, no more staying away from the track on hot days. Look for a separate build thread specifically for the cooling system in the next few weeks. Regarding the time period, expect completion next month with the car returning fully assembled and capable of handling the increased power.

      This article was originally published in forum thread: M3 DCT Build Journal - World's First BMW DCT Build started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 3082 Comments
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
        That sounds like a software/coding issue...? TCU not talking to the hardware properly and vice versa?
        No, not software.
      1. c32AMG-DTM's Avatar
        c32AMG-DTM -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        No, not software.
        Okay - fair enough. I'll wait to hear what the issue was, when you're ready to post it. My thinking was, if the clutches were one of the primary changes, and quirky behavior like random shifts, going into neutral when it shouldn't, etc. is happening - something in the electronic chain might be acting up. Unless SSP got the basic dimensions/spacing wrong within the box...?

        Anyway, again - sorry to hear you're going through this... pioneering something usually has bumps along the way, but this has seemingly had more than its fair share.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
        Okay - fair enough. I'll wait to hear what the issue was, when you're ready to post it. My thinking was, if the clutches were one of the primary changes, and quirky behavior like random shifts, going into neutral when it shouldn't, etc. is happening - something in the electronic chain might be acting up. Unless SSP got the basic dimensions/spacing wrong within the box...?
        I mean you're right in a sense that the elctronics are telling the trans to go into neutral or shift. But it's because of a hardware issue as the dct computer isn't getting what it's expecting from the hardware. They upped the line pressure to the max and it simply wasn't that. It's actually something pretty basic that caused all of this and they are seeing if they can fix it. Funny how the "dct experts" messed this up and a tuner who doesn't even specialize in this transmissions managed to notice it. I'll have more soon.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
        Anyway, again - sorry to hear you're going through this... pioneering something usually has bumps along the way, but this has seemingly had more than its fair share.
        It's really not that big of a deal. Others make a far bigger deal about the bumps and the time than I do. Others also use the bumps and time to put me down but those aren't the enthusiasts.

        Then there are some like SSP who want to shift the blame away as quickly as possible making up whatever is necessary to do so. Everything will be set straight in due time, hopefully this next week. Nobody is going to ever want to use SSP for anything ever again.
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        It's the trans shifting gears randomly, going into neutral, just not doing what it should. We found out why.
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I'll have more soon.
        explain
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
        explain
        I'm supposed to explain what 'I'll have more soon' means?
      1. Ak335i's Avatar
        Ak335i -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I'm supposed to explain what 'I'll have more soon' means?
        dont try to use logic here, the mentality is that you are supposed to drop everything and tell every detail about your car everytime some one asks Click here to enlarge
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ak335i Click here to enlarge
        dont try to use logic here, the mentality is that you are supposed to drop everything and tell every detail about your car everytime some one asks Click here to enlarge
        or
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        We found out why.
        makes it sound like there is information to be shared.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
        makes it sound like there is information to be shared.
        Yes, there is. I'll share as soon as I find out what they figure out.
      1. DFM's Avatar
        DFM -
        The sense that I get is that sticky has a vague understanding of what the problem might be, but he wants to be 100% certain before posting about it. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I could be wrong...
      1. Autobahn335i's Avatar
        Autobahn335i -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DFM Click here to enlarge
        The sense that I get is that sticky has a vague understanding of what the problem might be, but he wants to be 100% certain before posting about it. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I could be wrong...
        Nah, Sticky is a attention whore and just wants to build up suspense LOL

        I'm interested in the findings too. DCT is really the only way to go in an M3!

        I wonder what german tuners like Manhart Racing or Hamann would say on these issues. I know they can handle whole engine and transmission swaps, so maybe they also have something up their sleeve to strengthen the DCT? Maybe Sticky should reach out in that direction?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
        Nah, Sticky is a attention whore and just wants to build up suspense LOLI'm interested in the findings too. DCT is really the only way to go in an M3! I wonder what german tuners like Manhart Racing or Hamann would say on these issues. I know they can handle whole engine and transmission swaps, so maybe they also have something up their sleeve to strengthen the DCT? Maybe Sticky should reach out in that direction?
        Those german companies you mentioned aren't on the US level. Honestly, we crush them for less money. We're honestly still the best in the private sector in car tuning.
      1. Autobahn335i's Avatar
        Autobahn335i -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Those german companies you mentioned aren't on the US level. Honestly, we crush them for less money. We're honestly still the best in the private sector in car tuning.
        The best for domestics, but also the best for german cars...?

        G-Power offers high power S/C kits and a "modified DCT Drivelogic". I'd give them a call.

        http://www.g-power.de/934.html?L=1&c...#Produkt_Start
      1. MisterEm's Avatar
        MisterEm -
        @Sticky

        Any technical updates or SSP updates?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MisterEm Click here to enlarge
        @Sticky

        Any technical updates or SSP updates?
        Just wait.
      1. Serps's Avatar
        Serps -
        http://bimmerboost.com/showthread.ph...525#post452525

        SSP CLUTCH PACK UPDATE Click here to enlarge
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Serps Click here to enlarge
        Sticky posted a separate update showing his works too
      1. MisterEm's Avatar
        MisterEm -
        K.I.S.S. method strikes again.
      1. PEI330Ci's Avatar
        PEI330Ci -
        I think this is ridiculous, all of it.

        There will never be a truthful side to this debacle, because so many chefs have been in the kitchen.

        My experience with technical issues in general is that there is never a clear cause. The more you dig, the more variables you find that could contribute to widely varying outcomes. I do this type of investigation for a living, with huge amounts of $$$ at stake, and I've never seen a beneficial situation from hostility.

        All of this mud-slinging between parties isn't benifiting anyone. (Unless you enjoy public spats)

        While an OEM transmission is going to handle the new power output for a little while, fatigue and wear is going to surface. It's just a matter of time; even 2000hp drag racing transmissions have failures. What I would do if I was working with this type of transmission, is look into materials processing. There is a ton of processes that can make existing OEM parts stronger, and more durable, without making them out of new and un-tested materials. Companies like Sulzer, WPC, and others with Cryo and REM polishing treatments are hugely successful in the motorsports environment. This stuff works.

        For these clutch disks, there is just as much science involved in the transmission fluid as in the clutch material itself. Using different friction modifiers will affect how the clutch works, regardless of electronic control strategy and line pressures. I mention this just as an example of a variable that can leave you asking more questions than are answered...

        I guess a person needs to ask where they get their enjoyment from? Building something that works, or enormously drawn out public debates.

        Some people may not like what I'm saying, and that's fine. I'm probably contributing to the drama that I complain about by making this post.....
      1. Commanderwiggin's Avatar
        Commanderwiggin -
        ^ Risk cause analysis...like you said there are too many chef's in the kitchen and it is a system of reasons that the setup never worked to begin with.

        Regardless the lack of support by SSP and the time consumed is a fact...those reasons alone are enough to not do business with them IMO.
      1. c32AMG-DTM's Avatar
        c32AMG-DTM -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin Click here to enlarge
        Regardless the lack of support by SSP and the time consumed is a fact...those reasons alone are enough to not do business with them IMO.
        It is worrisome - certainly, and worth considering before buying hardware from such a vendor.

        However, if the whole build had been a little more timely, maybe the support would've been better... no way to know.

        Sticky posted that he paid in full for his motor build back in 2010 (IIRC) by selling his old S/C kit and giving the cash proceeds to Gintani. As far as I can tell, the motor build wasn't even started until late 2012 or maybe even early 2013. Sticky's good with the delays, and it's his car so that's all that matters - but me? I'd have been pissed with my shop if I'd paid them in full for something and they didn't even start the agreed-upon work for 2+ years after being paid. You don't need the trans in the car to build the motor...