• DCT Build Part VII - Taking the BMW E92 M3 DCT to the next level, 800+ wheel horsepower clutch disc capacity

      You have seen the DCT taken apart, what it looks like inside, worn clutch discs, and brand new higher capacity clutch discs made. The new discs handle 600+ and 700+ whp respectively. With my power goals, SSP has decided to build a clutch pack that is beyond anything developed at this time for the DCT. What is the power goal? Well, it is beyond what is currently available and SSP is currently developing a clutch disc pack capable of over 800 wheel horsepower.

      How is this being done?

      The current clutch discs are of a thicker material than the stock discs. However, the stock clutch pack has 9 discs in it. By increasing the number of clutch discs they are going to increase the maximum torque capacity. By going to a thicker material and increasing the total number of discs to 11, the DCT in the BMW M3 will be taken to a level no one previously thought was possible. This is going to be similar to the GTR 1000 hp clutch setup by SSP (pictured) but the GTR uses more clutch discs albeit smaller, thinner discs.

      What else is being done and how much time will it take?

      The DCT is going to receive a cooling system based on what SSP has done with the GTR's. This will be a DCT specific application and will be great for the guys who track. No more overheats, no more staying away from the track on hot days. Look for a separate build thread specifically for the cooling system in the next few weeks. Regarding the time period, expect completion next month with the car returning fully assembled and capable of handling the increased power.

      This article was originally published in forum thread: M3 DCT Build Journal - World's First BMW DCT Build started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 3082 Comments
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
        Sticky, dude, calm down.
        No need to brag about a car that is not finished, no need to insult other nations necause of your frustrations.
        They are totally understandable.
        I would be on edge too if I had to wait so long. In fact, I would have shot somebody's wife already....
        If I have waited this long obviously I do not give a $#@!.
      1. DavidV's Avatar
        DavidV -
        Click here to enlarge
      1. ERM324's Avatar
        ERM324 -
        On a serious note, when is this car going to be finished? I really want to see how your DCT does because I am looking to upgrade the tranny at some point and not a single car that I know of is running successfully with their stuff (I know supposedly theres a guy in taiwan and a couple were sold across the US but I havent heard of any reviews or anything).
      1. akh23456's Avatar
        akh23456 -
        Rick do you notice anything with your transmission that makes you want to upgrade or just for safety?
      1. ERM324's Avatar
        ERM324 -
        Nothing out of the ordinary the car is completely normal but I want to pull the trigger on the Aquamist HFS kit and put the 650 setup in my car but I remember with my buddy CJ's 650 kit his DCT sounded like it was slipping sometimes redlining 2-3 (sounded being the key word here, not sure if it actually was, but it had me thinking at times), and I know that alot of people (even ESS) dont recommending going that high up with the DCT because you might run into some issues. I would do it just for safety, but yeah I havent had any issues thus far (knock on wood).

        What about you? I know we both beat the $#@! out of our cars and it gives me comfort knowing that yours are holding up too lol. Drew's car was also impressive holding up as long as it did with the beating he put it through, and that VAC car is holding up too right? I think we should be good for some time, but I just want the comfort of knowing we have a set in stone option when all is said and done if we happen to blow something.
      1. Autobahn335i's Avatar
        Autobahn335i -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        If I have waited this long obviously I do not give a $#@!. $#@! the Netherlands.
        Way to treat members which have contributed with several thousand posts on your forum... WTF is up with you today?
      1. akh23456's Avatar
        akh23456 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ERM324 Click here to enlarge
        Nothing out of the ordinary the car is completely normal but I want to pull the trigger on the Aquamist HFS kit and put the 650 setup in my car but I remember with my buddy CJ's 650 kit his DCT sounded like it was slipping sometimes redlining 2-3 (sounded being the key word here, not sure if it actually was, but it had me thinking at times), and I know that alot of people (even ESS) dont recommending going that high up with the DCT because you might run into some issues. I would do it just for safety, but yeah I havent had any issues thus far (knock on wood).

        What about you? I know we both beat the $#@! out of our cars and it gives me comfort knowing that yours are holding up too lol. Drew's car was also impressive holding up as long as it did with the beating he put it through, and that VAC car is holding up too right? I think we should be good for some time, but I just want the comfort of knowing we have a set in stone option when all is said and done if we happen to blow something.
        yea i know what you mean. I can deff say right now from what i have seen you and me have beaten the $#@! out of the transmission as well as Sticky and Drew... Car is holding up just fine i thought my clutches were going bad but steve drove my car and said that my car shifted better than his so i guess not lol. i like to upgrade the clutches( when someone makes a set that work properly) and change the fluid honestly.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
        Way to treat members which have contributed with several thousand posts on your forum... WTF is up with you today?
        I was on my cell phone posting at the bar after the clippers lost. If I offended you I apologize. Just messing around.
      1. bobS's Avatar
        bobS -
        Until someone comes out with a software and clutch upgrade, there won't be a good solution for rebuilding the dct

        At least that's my opinion, considering the trans is hydraulically and electronically shifted...
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by akh23456 Click here to enlarge
        Car is holding up just fine i thought my clutches were going bad but steve drove my car and said that my car shifted better than his so i guess not lol.
        yup, i didnt understand it. his is smooth as silk, as its always been. mine feels a little more rough, but im inclined to think its just the diff mounts. I need to get the VAC ones.

        @ERM324, whats ess say about the dct clutches. bull$#@! aside, i would think that if they could do it, it would have been done, and 650 kit on dct wouldnt be an issue. also, realisticly, 625-650 wouldnt be any more risky. its 25 Chp.. another reason im debating keeping boost -7psi
      1. ERM324's Avatar
        ERM324 -
        I mean the VAC car is at 9psi now and its holding up fine isn't it? I'm actually happy they are pushing that thing to the limit so we can see how well both the motor and the DCT hold up...ESS doesn't say anything other than real common sense stuff, just the more power you push the more wear your going to get on the tranny obviously...it just seems that upward of 600 wheel is the limit for the tranny from what I've seen

        7psi isn't enough, the car feels slow after a while lol
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        There isn't really a limit as much as higher power wears faster. If you don't launch from a stop you can handle more power for longer.
      1. MSpiredM3's Avatar
        MSpiredM3 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Drew is a pussy. I'll gladly run him or anyone else who has the courage to step up.

        He runs like a girl though, he won't step up and let me smack him around for the world to see.
        LMAO! This, coming from someone who's car hasn't ran in two years. The emotions of a adolescent teenager...
      1. MSpiredM3's Avatar
        MSpiredM3 -
        How many cars have you run again? Drew has single handily ran more cars than anyone any of us know. Are you EVER going to stop acting like a immature little female? I understand though, your parents never gave you the chance to become a real man, they raised a $#@!...
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MSpiredM3 Click here to enlarge
        How many cars have you run again? Drew has single handily ran more cars than anyone any of us know. Are you EVER going to stop acting like a immature little female? I understand though, your parents never gave you the chance to become a real man, they raised a $#@!...
        Lol ok dude.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MSpiredM3 Click here to enlarge
        LMAO! This, coming from someone who's car hasn't ran in two years. The emotions of a adolescent teenager...
        Let me know if you want a piece too little guy.
      1. M33's Avatar
        M33 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Drew is a pussy. I'll gladly run him or anyone else who has the courage to step up.

        He runs like a girl though, he won't step up and let me smack him around for the world to see.
        The only thing you run is your mouth bro ... I so wished we lived near each other for many reasons Click here to enlarge
        now how in the world can you sit here and tell everyone that after 3 years you still have no idea what your hold up was and if theirs anotherone you won't know what it is ????
        I wonder if your car really exist......

        I've seen pictures of you , I don't Forsee you smacking anyone but the table when your pissed due to another delay from your flux capacitor.....

        Vroo. Vroom please step aside sticky coming through on his 10 speed
      1. Stampy's Avatar
        Stampy -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Now kindly STFU and go wow people with a build of your own as if anyone gives a crap about your C32 or other outdated cars you are doing nothing with. Read more, hate less.
        Isn't an E92 M3 now "out dated" considering it is no longer in production... doesn't that seem ridiculous to you?

        You bought this car new and it's been under the knife for its whole production cycle and is now out of production, you're bashing someones "out dated" car while yours is, and to top it all off you act all hard while your setup is being built on someone elses dime.

        Class act right here ladies and gents.
      1. jjv104's Avatar
        jjv104 -
        Gentlemen,

        Can we please try to keep this post on topic. Sticky started this post with some excellent photos and a plan to do some great upgrades. This obviouly took up a lot of his time. I thank him for sharing it. Obviously the build is not working out as timely as he would like and I understand his frustration. The negative comments are not productive.

        I'm sure many of us DCT owners would like to get more information about the issues with the DCT when supercharging the car. I know I would. I installed a VF-620 SC and have had issues with the clutch slipping at the track. I have spoken with SSP about their clutch packs ($2599). Kris told me that they have sold about 30 sets. Most were shipped to Shanghai for a SC installer there who puts them into all his cars. Kris said that he sold 6-10 in North America but I did not ask Kris for a reference list. So far I've not found one post on the forums of anyone successfully using the SSP clutch packs. Drew installed the SSP clutch packs but their was another issue with the transmission and he ended up having the entire DCT replaced.

        I'm a mechanical engineer and am familiar with wet clutches in industrial equipment. The idea of Kevlar friction material sounds good, but if you research the recomendations from the manufacturer of the material you'll find that Kevlar is harder than the paper based material Getrag uses and requires higher clamping force, just like a race clutch in a MT requires stronger springs. Kevlar also takes up to 5 times longer to break-in vs paper based material. ESS says their software upgrade for the DCT ($995) increases the clamping force. If this is possible to do with just a tune I think it's prudent to ask what will be the next weak link in the DCT. The clutch design, and the DCT too for that matter, has many compromises. The paper based material has its advantages. The same with the transmission fluid. SSP pushes their own fluid ($50/ liter, the DCT takes about 9 liters) as being superior to the BMW fill of Pentosin FFL-4. The DCT has a single sump so the fluid must lubricate the gears as well as possible, but also disipate heat from the wet clutches and not be too slippery so the clutches don't slip. The reqirements for each application is contradictory at best. Pentosin is a well respected company and a leader in double clutch transmission lubrication for many auto companies. Even BMW dealers sell the FFL-4 for much less than SSP.

        Another possibility is a race clutch module that is currently being developed in europe. James Clay from BimmerWorld is researching the clutch to see if it might have potential. Preliminary pricing is about $8000 plus install.

        Lastly, if your DCT was abused before the SC was installed, it's entirely possible that the friction material is glazed and requires replacement. BMW does sell the clutch module separately ($1900 - $2400 plus install). In my mind a factory replacement might be the most practical solution. Imagine that.

        I'm also working with VF-Engineering to make sure there is nothing in their software that might be contributing to the problem. The DCT talks to the ECU via the PT-CAN to control engine torque. VF is very aware of the DCT interface and are trying to duplicate the problem I have on one of their test mules.

        Stay tuned.
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jjv104 Click here to enlarge
        Gentlemen,

        Can we please try to keep this post on topic. Sticky started this post with some excellent photos and a plan to do some great upgrades. This obviouly took up a lot of his time. I thank him for sharing it. Obviously the build is not working out as timely as he would like and I understand his frustration. The negative comments are not productive.

        I'm sure many of us DCT owners would like to get more information about the issues with the DCT when supercharging the car. I know I would. I installed a VF-620 SC and have had issues with the clutch slipping at the track. I have spoken with SSP about their clutch packs ($2599). Kris told me that they have sold about 30 sets. Most were shipped to Shanghai for a SC installer there who puts them into all his cars. Kris said that he sold 6-10 in North America but I did not ask Kris for a reference list. So far I've not found one post on the forums of anyone successfully using the SSP clutch packs. Drew installed the SSP clutch packs but their was another issue with the transmission and he ended up having the entire DCT replaced.

        I'm a mechanical engineer and am familiar with wet clutches in industrial equipment. The idea of Kevlar friction material sounds good, but if you research the recomendations from the manufacturer of the material you'll find that Kevlar is harder than the paper based material Getrag uses and requires higher clamping force, just like a race clutch in a MT requires stronger springs. Kevlar also takes up to 5 times longer to break-in vs paper based material. ESS says their software upgrade for the DCT ($995) increases the clamping force. If this is possible to do with just a tune I think it's prudent to ask what will be the next weak link in the DCT. The clutch design, and the DCT too for that matter, has many compromises. The paper based material has its advantages. The same with the transmission fluid. SSP pushes their own fluid ($50/ liter, the DCT takes about 9 liters) as being superior to the BMW fill of Pentosin FFL-4. The DCT has a single sump so the fluid must lubricate the gears as well as possible, but also disipate heat from the wet clutches and not be too slippery so the clutches don't slip. The reqirements for each application is contradictory at best. Pentosin is a well respected company and a leader in double clutch transmission lubrication for many auto companies. Even BMW dealers sell the FFL-4 for much less than SSP.

        Another possibility is a race clutch module that is currently being developed in europe. James Clay from BimmerWorld is researching the clutch to see if it might have potential. Preliminary pricing is about $8000 plus install.

        Lastly, if your DCT was abused before the SC was installed, it's entirely possible that the friction material is glazed and requires replacement. BMW does sell the clutch module separately ($1900 - $2400 plus install). In my mind a factory replacement might be the most practical solution. Imagine that.

        I'm also working with VF-Engineering to make sure there is nothing in their software that might be contributing to the problem. The DCT talks to the ECU via the PT-CAN to control engine torque. VF is very aware of the DCT interface and are trying to duplicate the problem I have on one of their test mules.

        Stay tuned.
        awesome, all of it