• Supersprint compares their S85 V10 header design to a competitor's and explains why their exhaust engineering is better

      Designing headers for the most recent naturally aspirated M engines is not easy work. Cars like the E60 M5 and E63 M6 using the high revving 5.0 liter S85 V10 already put out over 100 horsepower per liter from the factory. BMW M knows what they are doing and their header designs are very good to begin with. It is of course possible to improve on their production pieces which must meet emission and production cost restrictions but someone must really know what they are doing.

      Supersprint knows what they are doing. They recently posted a comparison of their S85 V10 header design to an unnamed competitor. We wish they named the competitor but it is understandable that by doing so it could be misinterpreted as unprofessional or taking direct shots. Check out their design comparison and comments below. Additionally, take a look at the Evolve Automotive S85 V10 headers to compare and Evolve's explanation of their engineering choices in their design. Supersprint does not provide as much data as Evolve regarding their S85 V10 header performance.

      SuperSprint:

      Recently there have been some requests and comparisons between our M5 E60/61 / M6 E63/64 V10 headers and what our competitors are offering. So here's a visual comparison between our 789301 and an example of what's on the market.

      Here's our 789301. Pipe routing and collector details. The primary pipes are separated to allow different thermal expansion without mechanical stress. The spring loaded flange and sealing rings avoid leaks. The perfectly smooth 5 into 1 collectors merge the gas glows in a linear, optimal way


      Here's a competitor's headers set. It's a 4 into 1 design adapted to a 5 cylinder engine, with the 5th pipe plugged in the middle of the collector. All the pipes are welded toghether, which can cause failure of the welding with heat. This can cause an expensive repair job! Also notice the pipe routing is not optimal.


      And here's the detail of the competitor's manifold collector, inside. The pipes stop abruptly, no smooth merging, a lot of flow interference and an irregular shaped centre hole.


      For comparison here's a close up of our 5 into 1 collector with the centre piramidal diffuser that merge the flows in a linear and efficient way into the main outlet.


      A different view, where you can see the spring loaded flange that keeps the sealing rings (made in graphite and pressed metal mesh) into place, to avoid leaks. They are also cheaply and quickly replacable!

      This article was originally published in forum thread: Supersprint compares their S85 V10 header design to a competitor's and explains why their exhaust engineering is better started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 23 Comments
      1. BlackJetE90OC's Avatar
        BlackJetE90OC -
        Not related to the S85.

        Just saw Bimmerworld has new headers for the S65.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
        Not related to the S85.

        Just saw Bimmerworld has new headers for the S65.
        $3,699.99 and no dyno? No flow charts? Nothing?
      1. Bimmerbear's Avatar
        Bimmerbear -
        "Our headers are better than these eBay looking headers because they look better, but we don't have any science to back it up."

        Ok.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bimmerbear Click here to enlarge
        "Our headers are better than these eBay looking headers because they look better, but we don't have any science to back it up."

        Ok.
        Well I mean their design choices don't seem to be based solely around aesthetics.
      1. Bimmerbear's Avatar
        Bimmerbear -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Well I mean their design choices don't seem to be based solely around aesthetics.
        When I say they look better I mean the design.

        They're trying to sound like engineers to impress all the E60 derps by touting "linear" (when they actually mean laminar) flow. They're getting fancy with words like "flow interference" and don't even have a dyno chart comparing the two sets of headers. They also say that the competitor's headers are welded together and can fail with heat, but their headers have welds that can do the same thing. They're not engineers. They just weld pipes together.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bimmerbear Click here to enlarge
        When I say they look better I mean the design.

        They're trying to sound like engineers to impress all the E60 derps by touting "linear" (when they actually mean laminar) flow. They're getting fancy with words like "flow interference" and don't even have a dyno chart comparing the two sets of headers. They also say that the competitor's headers are welded together and can fail with heat, but their headers have welds that can do the same thing. They're not engineers. They just weld pipes together.
        Well I like tacos.
      1. 5soko's Avatar
        5soko -
        That merge collector i think shows alot.. SS and Evolve headers are def the best on the market.. SS makes the evolve headers for them aswell.. Nice read!
      1. sahyoun's Avatar
        sahyoun -
        Honestly all you would have to do from an engineering standpoint without spending a lot of money you can model it in solid works or any other CAD and import the model into matlab and use CFD to analyze flow and compare flow (i.e. reynolds number). If the reynolds number is less than 2000 than the flow is laminar. If its over 4000 its usually turbulent. Anything between is the transition stage. Generally the lower the Reynolds number the better the flow. In other words let computers do the comparing.
      1. AlexQuattro's Avatar
        AlexQuattro -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        $3,699.99 and no dyno? No flow charts? Nothing?
        So about half the price of the Supersprint headers?

        Supersprint's design is better? Yes... Maybe... Probably...

        Are they worth 7K$ though? Absolutely not!
      1. rawad1017's Avatar
        rawad1017 -
        I've seen 40whp gains from SS headers + 200 cell i think cats + tune on both dynojet and mustang dynos. they're long tube headers tho so deeper sound.

        evolve and SS exhausts and headers are made in the same factory
      1. onurleft's Avatar
        onurleft -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bimmerbear Click here to enlarge
        When I say they look better I mean the design.

        They're trying to sound like engineers to impress all the E60 derps by touting "linear" (when they actually mean laminar) flow. They're getting fancy with words like "flow interference" and don't even have a dyno chart comparing the two sets of headers. They also say that the competitor's headers are welded together and can fail with heat, but their headers have welds that can do the same thing. They're not engineers. They just weld pipes together.

        They're engineer's..

        Their headers make more power before any other(s) on every application they've approached. They don't need to post dyno sheets, other's will.

        On a side note you sound dumb af. They're trying to make the pitfalls of the competition obvious to their customer base, I believe it's accomplished with this.

        The competitions welds suck. This can cost you lots of money if there's a failure. Customers spending 3k on headers and 1k on install do not enjoy re-visiting the install. Time/Money is compromised.
        The merge sucks. A bad merge on any BMW will result is massive power loss
        Poor quality. Obviously by the pictures
        Half ass design. V8 header turned into V10 header.


        Good analysis for all audiences
      1. sahyoun's Avatar
        sahyoun -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by onurleft Click here to enlarge
        They're engineer's..

        Their headers make more power before any other(s) on every application they've approached. They don't need to post dyno sheets, other's will.

        On a side note you sound dumb af. They're trying to make the pitfalls of the competition obvious to their customer base, I believe it's accomplished with this.

        The competitions welds suck. This can cost you lots of money if there's a failure. Customers spending 3k on headers and 1k on install do not enjoy re-visiting the install. Time/Money is compromised.
        The merge sucks. A bad merge on any BMW will result is massive power loss
        Poor quality. Obviously by the pictures
        Half ass design. V8 header turned into V10 header.


        Good analysis for all audiences
        As an engineer you learn to back up claims with data. I don't understand why they couldn't have a digital flow analysis against competitors considering its pretty trivial engineering to provide such data and would only help them if what they say is true. A company as pricy and respected as super sprint should easily be able to provide such data.
      1. rawad1017's Avatar
        rawad1017 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
        As an engineer you learn to back up claims with data. I don't understand why they couldn't have a digital flow analysis against competitors considering its pretty trivial engineering to provide such data and would only help them if what they say is true. A company as pricy and respected as super sprint should easily be able to provide such data.
        what, does them not having dyno numbers reduce their credibility? they rely on customers for the numbers, thats a good way to stay out of drama from people who attempt to call foul play. kinda like what RPi went through. there are dynos out there.
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        SS is a proven name for aftermarket exhaust; their product but I'm not a fan of the spring loaded merge collector "seal"..... It'd obviously increase production cost, but a billet collector would be ideal.
      1. sahyoun's Avatar
        sahyoun -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rawad1017 Click here to enlarge
        what, does them not having dyno numbers reduce their credibility? they rely on customers for the numbers, thats a good way to stay out of drama from people who attempt to call foul play. kinda like what RPi went through. there are dynos out there.
        I never said anything about a dyno. Im talking about some sort of data comparing the flows between the two.
      1. inlineS54B32's Avatar
        inlineS54B32 -
        That's a sexy header... I didn't really think how complex headers can get (collectors) when dealing with a 5 or even 6 cylinder bank. Looks like some serious engineering.
        @sahyoun - linear flow isn't an "incorrect" term. Given the context, it makes perfect sense. They aren't talking about removing turbulent air at this point, they are alluding that the gross flow rate is superior/retained. I don't think they meant to say laminar flow here - but could be wrong. Point is, I wouldn't just disregard everything you are seeing based on terminology - when both terms make perfect sense from an engineering standpoint.
      1. sahyoun's Avatar
        sahyoun -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
        That's a sexy header... I didn't really think how complex headers can get (collectors) when dealing with a 5 or even 6 cylinder bank. Looks like some serious engineering.
        @sahyoun - linear flow isn't an "incorrect" term. Given the context, it makes perfect sense. They aren't talking about removing turbulent air at this point, they are alluding that the gross flow rate is superior/retained. I don't think they meant to say laminar flow here - but could be wrong. Point is, I wouldn't just disregard everything you are seeing based on terminology - when both terms make perfect sense from an engineering standpoint.
        I never said they used the wrong terminology, that was bimmerbear. My point stands they could very easily compare flow analysis and make that information public and let people decide which one to go with from there.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
        I never said they used the wrong terminology, that was bimmerbear. My point stands they could very easily compare flow analysis and make that information public and let people decide which one to go with from there.
        You make a solid point. Supersprint does sometimes post data.

        The OP highlights though that Evolve provides much more data on their product. Supersprint is really big so they probably don't feel like they need to go out of their way.
      1. inlineS54B32's Avatar
        inlineS54B32 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sahyoun Click here to enlarge
        I never said they used the wrong terminology, that was bimmerbear. My point stands they could very easily compare flow analysis and make that information public and let people decide which one to go with from there.
        Sorry about that, quickly mis-"read" that... It would be nice for people to do this with headers and such - kinda like a dyno but for flow at pressure. Everything that can be quantified in the car world should - we'll get there someday Click here to enlarge
      1. sahyoun's Avatar
        sahyoun -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        You make a solid point. Supersprint does sometimes post data.

        The OP highlights though that Evolve provides much more data on their product. Supersprint is really big so they probably don't feel like they need to go out of their way.
        Yeah, I agree they've made a name for themselves and I personally would buy supersprint anything if I had the cash and never look back. It's just some people are more skeptical about brands and I have no doubt supersprint would have some impressive quantitative data that would further reinforce their statements. I'm surprised that flow analysis/data isn't common data that's offered by exhaust companies.