• Active Autowerke already blows E92 M3 S65 V8 Motor with their Supercharger kit?

      It seems that the Active Autowerke supercharger for the E92 M3 has already claimed a motor. We were suprised to learn of this since AA took so much time to come to market and did extensive testing. The vehicle in question has meth in addition to 93 octane so we don't feel this was a fueling issue. If the motor blew with meth as a safety on top of 93 octane it leaves either the tune as the issue or a defect in the motor. Additionally, Active changes the plugs on the motor to colder heat range HKS plugs. Take a look at the shots of the plugs to see that they may have played a part in the motor blowing. The factory plugs are an intricate part of the knock control systeml.

      The car itself was a dealer demo car. People beat the crap out of these cars so keep that in mind. I would never buy a demo, you should never buy a demo. There is a reason customers are encouraged to "test" on demos. The motor only had 25,000 miles.

      Here are pictures of the installed AA SC:



      And the aftermath:

      Plug from failed cylinder:





      Compared to plugs in other cylinders:







      Bottom of car:







      Top end:



      Water in intake manifold:



      Pieces from the motor:



      We will have more as we find out more but it seems there is going to be some explaining to do. Will be interesting to see if the failure was mechanical or the tune itself. For those with Active SC's, we advise you to monitor the situation closely.
      This article was originally published in forum thread: Active Autowerke already blows E92 M3 S65 V8 Motor? started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 75 Comments
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PencilGeek Click here to enlarge
        Nobody disputes this can work with a standalone ECU. I'll be happy to leave if you want to insult me while helping others try to understand.
        Then you should probably at this point understand we were talking about more than just the S65 and specifically about meth and adjusting boost with turbos.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PencilGeek Click here to enlarge
        More insults. And of course you were dead wrong too. I still design and write very complex software on a daily basis. Today was no exception.
        Who's insulting you? That is the reality of it. What complex software would you need to design? You know what, I don't know, I don't care, but I just haven't seen any programming prowess to substantiate anything not that it matters as it is off topic.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PencilGeek Click here to enlarge
        obody disputes this works on a stand-alone ECU. And yes, I read this entire thread before making any comments at all. To me, the context was clearly S65. I'd still like to hear your explaination of how this is supposed to work on the S65 and MSS60. You still haven't answered that...but you have twice offered insults instead. I'd still like to know what you meant -- without the insults. How will this CAN message interract with the ECU ("tune") and interract with the meth controller to cut boost in case of some type of meth failure on the S65 and MSS60? Just explain it without getting all bent out of shape. If you don't know...just say it.
        Well, I guess you are pretty new around here as ccykes was referring to the HPF S54 setup specifically as he is educated on it since he is purchasing it. So, we went on a bit of an aside there. I never said this would work with the S65 ecu. I'm not saying it can't be done either though. We gave specific examples of what already exists regarding meth on BMW applications regarding what could and has been done.

        I'm not sure what you need explained here. I thought the stand alone explanation was pretty clear. I thought cutting boost to protect the motor was also clear. I also thought it was clear when it was stated that progressive meth controllers already are reading boost and have CAN access. Why you are limiting this to an S65 application I have no idea. If other platforms in the BMW community have solutions, don't see why the S65 is special and can't adopt some of the tried and true approaches.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Nice one Mike:

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MspiredM3 Click here to enlarge
        I've never read so many stupid comments from people that actually think they know what they are talking about in one place.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Something I learned recently, BMW changed the rod bearings from '08 to '09. If the car had the '08 bearings, this may have played a part. If you look at the motor, it tells you this was more than just a spark plug issue.

        The HKS plugs have been used successfully in newer vehicles that have a similar knock control system from what I understand. I wish we had more info on the car.
      1. 0-60Motorsports's Avatar
        0-60Motorsports -
        OH OH! More bull$#@!! Threads are going off topic.
      1. Monster135's Avatar
        Monster135 -
        So what's the status of the car? Did AA do a tear down and determine the cause of the failure yet?
      1. DBFIU's Avatar
        DBFIU -
        I love how people blame the kit for this failure.

        I dunno I am not used to seeing this, I hung around many domestics in my year and when their motors pop they never blame vortech or procharger, they just move on because they know they fuucked up.

        In my opinion, as soon as you put a blower on a car like this YOU ARE AT FAULT. Just IMO, because the engine is being put under a lot more stress.

        There are some exceptions namely recalled items, items known to cause failures etc... But even then you cannot say the motor wouldnt have survived without the extra boost, it may have survived it's entire life; how are you going to prove otherwise?

        Just because we are dealing with more expensive cars and more expensive setups doesnt mean we can start blaming manufacturers.
      1. Monster135's Avatar
        Monster135 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
        I love how people blame the kit for this failure.

        I dunno I am not used to seeing this, I hung around many domestics in my year and when their motors pop they never blame vortech or procharger, they just move on because they know they fuucked up.

        In my opinion, as soon as you put a blower on a car like this YOU ARE AT FAULT. Just IMO, because the engine is being put under a lot more stress.

        There are some exceptions namely recalled items, items known to cause failures etc... But even then you cannot say the motor wouldnt have survived without the extra boost, it may have survived it's entire life; how are you going to prove otherwise?

        Just because we are dealing with more expensive cars and more expensive setups doesnt mean we can start blaming manufacturers.
        I agree, but the underlying difference between a Chevy V8 and an M3 is that the Chevy motor costs significantly less to rebuild. So when people get hit with the bill its not an easy pill to swallow. Also a supercharger setup for a Ford Mustang or Chevy Camaro costs alot less than an M, manufacturers claim they spend countless hours in the R&D stage to perfect these kits and make them "safe", hence their hefty price tag. So when some guy's motor gives after paying 10-12k on top of 70 he paid for the car or $1000 a month lease he's irrate.

        If I had to take a guess, I'd say the motor was defective to begin with and supercharger exacerbated the problem...
      1. DBFIU's Avatar
        DBFIU -
        I feel what you're saying, it is a cheaper pond modding a domestic. And I would be pissed if a 10k supercharger just destroyed a 70k car. But that doesnt escape the fact that you bought that 10k supercharger and destroyed that 70k car.

        No guarantee in the world is going to give you 100% certainty that what you're doing will not hamper your engine, not from the manufacturer themselves. It's just how modding works, any manufacturer that guarantees 100% certainty hasnt been doing this long enough (Im sure AA made them sign some paperwork before this install to cover their asses). At the end of the day, this is a mod like any other, an expensive and risky one.
      1. tron's Avatar
        tron -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Something I learned recently, BMW changed the rod bearings from '08 to '09. If the car had the '08 bearings, this may have played a part. If you look at the motor, it tells you this was more than just a spark plug issue.

        The HKS plugs have been used successfully in newer vehicles that have a similar knock control system from what I understand. I wish we had more info on the car.
        Have new photos been released What do you see that now makes you certain its more than the plugs? What does your 180 stem from? You were pretty certain the plugs (or "knock") were the issue in the beginning of this thread.

        How many motors have you diagnosed (correctly) via the interwebz that makes you such an expert?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by tron Click here to enlarge
        Have new photos been released What do you see that now makes you certain its more than the plugs? What does your 180 stem from? You were pretty certain the plugs (or "knock") were the issue in the beginning of this thread.

        How many motors have you diagnosed (correctly) via the interwebz that makes you such an expert?
        No new photos have been release to my knowledge. Speaking with a couple of tuners who have far more hands on experience with these motors and SC's led me to taking a broader look.

        I would not call it a "180" as I have been careful to say we will know more once AA comments on it as we don't know what it is for sure. When I learned of the rod bearing change it made the issue a bit more complex. Additionally, I learned these plugs have been run successfully in several applications.

        I'm not ruling out the part the plugs play in knock control, they do, but this level of damage implies far more than the plugs.

        I'm not claiming to be an expert but thanks for calling me one, I'm here to learn as well. I much prefer to keep an open mind and a discussion going we can all learn from rather than simply taking all the comments negatively. Perhaps you would like to tell us all about what you think happened with your vast S65 knowledge from the interwebz?

        If you saw the thread where this originated from, you would understand the emphasis those users were placing on the plugs as the culprit. I'm saying there may be more to it than that and knowing the bearing were changed may give some added insight especially if this vehicle falls into the range of having the previous ones. Some added insight, you know, to maybe help you diagnose it for us? I'm waiting in anticipation to see what you think on the matter.
      1. LuckyEff's Avatar
        LuckyEff -
        bad tune.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LuckyEff Click here to enlarge
        bad tune.
        You are not the only person thinking this but we just don't know yet. Seems like this has gotten really quiet from everyone involved.
      1. ccsykes's Avatar
        ccsykes -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Monster135 Click here to enlarge
        I agree, but the underlying difference between a Chevy V8 and an M3 is that the Chevy motor costs significantly less to rebuild.
        Then unless you have the money to fix a blown motor from a European sports car, you shouldn't be modding it. I have said the same thing countless times, I simply don't get where people think they deserve a new motor when they mod it, push it hard and it blows up.

        I started out on domestics and when a motor blew, we just fixed it and moved on. I don't know of anyone who ever blamed a vendor. The BMW mod crowd is the first I have ever seen this before with.

        Edit:

        I remember when VF was getting bad mouthed on the forums for a few blown motors. HPF's has now had enough motors blow they estimate 2-4% failure rate on Stage 1 and 2. AA has had several documented motors blow. When one takes a step back and looks at this objectively.. ALL the vendors have had motors blow.. and ALL of them have had a similar proportion of blown motors to kits sold. This is just what happens, whether a V8 Camaro or BMW M3.. $#@! blows up. When you mod a car to levels that are putting out in some cases double the HP, this is a risk we take.

        Modding isn't accessorizing your clothing by buying a tie or shoes.. your changing the entire scope of the original design.
      1. NatAsp-M3's Avatar
        NatAsp-M3 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
        Then unless you have the money to fix a blown motor from a European sports car, you shouldn't be modding it. I have said the same thing countless times, I simply don't get where people think they deserve a new motor when they mod it, push it hard and it blows up.

        ... $#@! blows up. When you mod a car to levels that are putting out in some cases double the HP, this is a risk we take.

        Modding isn't accessorizing your clothing by buying a tie or shoes.. your changing the entire scope of the original design.
        I concur, if you can't afford HPV, don't sleep with her. Click here to enlarge

        As far as what really happened, I can't get over the uncanny silence.
        Maybe we should ask this guy, he seems to 'obviously' know something we don't:

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SuperlativE90 Click here to enlarge
        You guys, this blown motor was obviously at the fault of the driver and not the active kit. Omar has been nothing but honest and quite frankly, it is obvious that the owner even admitted the blown motor as being his fault. It is a shame that this incident was posted on the forum because it is a detriment to AA's very high (and well deserved) reputation. STOP TALKING SMACK BASED OFF OF YOUR UNEDUCATED ASSUMPTIONS.
        I saw the original thread until it disappeared, but I must have missed 'the owner' admitting it was his fault.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by NatAsp-M3 Click here to enlarge
        I saw the original thread until it disappeared, but I must have missed 'the owner' admitting it was his fault.
        I never saw the owner admitting it was his fault either... if anything he seemed thinking about attributing it to BMW which got some amusing responses.