• ESS Tuning VT2-625 supercharged E92 M3 versus Evolve Automotive E600 supercharged E92 M3

      The reality is performance between supercharger kits on the E9X M3 S65 V8 with stock internals is all going to be relatively close. The differentiating factors are going to be the pulley and boost, tuning, fuel, transmission, etc. The Vortech based kits like the ESS VT2 car here will all hit relatively similar peak numbers. The main difference the Evolve kit offers is a Rotrex based supercharger kit which gives a different torque curve that is definitely a bit fatter in the mid range.


      So how do the two stack up in the real world? From a 45 mile per hour roll the Evolve kit hit a peak speed of 136.52 miles per hour and the ESS VT2-625 kit hit 133.92. Close, but 2.6 miles per hour is 2.6 miles per hour so the Evolve kit edges out the ESS kit up top. Now, with a pulley swap certainly the ESS kit could change the outcome here. Then the same goes for the Evolve kit also changing the pulley used for some more boost. Make of that back and forth what you will.

      It would have been nice to see these two cars run from a stop as they are on a drag strip. Why that race did not take place so we could see a timeslip providing more data than just a peak velocity BimmerBoost does not know. Both cars are DCT models. Enjoy the video below.

      This article was originally published in forum thread: ESS Tuning VT2-625 supercharged E92 M3 versus Evolve Automotive E600 supercharged E92 M3 started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 103 Comments
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
        Hi Sticky,

        I think you are joking here.
        Why would I be?

        You guys run 10 psi and another guy runs 6 psi who will win? Situation reversed who will win?

        I think the context that is missing here is that on the stock motor the Rotrex C38-92 pairs better at boost levels suitable for the stock internals or pump gas.

        It depends on the setup. For a built motor application things change of course.
      1. evolve's Avatar
        evolve -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        The V3si will have a CFM advantage at the very top depending of course how far you push the impeller. Anyone can look at the flow charts. Apparently one poster in this thread did not.
        The V3Si on paper has a very minor advantage however as I have pointed out in the past even on paper the correction factor of both published air flow charts are different.
        It's like comparing 2 stock M3#s on a dynojet but one is showing STD correction and the other SAE.
        Correct the graphs for the same conditions and it's roughly about the same.

        During our testing we didn't just sit on a Rotrex and hope for the best. No one had ever tried on of these blowers on an S65. Making a bracket and pulley system to try out a blower based on a hunch is not something companies will risk doing.

        Using a charge cooler setup which gives literally no pressure drop, we can achieve 14-15 PSi with the C38-91 at 93,000 rpm which is slightly over spinning and taking belt slip (you will always have some no matter what) that's probably running closer to 91,000.
        The airflow is almost IDENTICAL at high rpm and that's IF you want to run these blowers at their limit.

        Now, no one is running them at their limit on any of these kits are they. So therefore the Rotrex will match the Vortech where both are being under spun. To be quite frank, both blowers are too big! We could have used a C38-81 and achieved 600-625 HP easily. Yes... we already tried.

        The advantage here goes to the Rotrex as it will always produce more boost across the rpm range, especially in the midrange.

        Here's a comparison on our dyno of Vortech intercooled vs Rotrex Intercooled. Both running the same timing and AFR and very similar IAT starting points.

        Click here to enlarge

        It's the closest match I could get in terms of sizing up the pulleys to get equal boost but you get the idea.
        The Rotrex delivers more boost in the midrange and the power is therefore higher.
        The Vortech almost matches the top end boost of the Rotrex at the top and makes slightly less power.

        If I could have matched the peak boost exactly you can just take the Vortech graph and shift it up slightly and still you can see the big different in boost levels.

        We used the Rotrex for a reason. It's much much more difficult to work though! The supercharger pulleys are small and they have a high stop up ratio and therefore belt grip is absolutely essential. A Rotrex will fail to deliver much if the belt grip is poor and that is where this little rumour comes from where the Rotrex is not as good - incorrect setup.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
        The V3Si on paper has a very minor advantage however as I have pointed out in the past even on paper the correction factor of both published air flow charts are different.
        It's like comparing 2 stock M3#s on a dynojet but one is showing STD correction and the other SAE.
        Correct the graphs for the same conditions and it's roughly about the same.
        I don't think the V3si really has any advantage until you start pushing these blowers toward their limit.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
        The airflow is almost IDENTICAL at high rpm and that's IF you want to run these blowers at their limit.
        According to this it works to about 1100 cfm:

        Click here to enlarge


        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
        Now, no one is running them at their limit on any of these kits are they.
        That's my point.

        Let's say you are at 6 psi and the other guy wants to run 7 psi. Well then you run 7 psi. Then he runs 8 psi. And so on so forth. Whomever pushes their blower the hardest ultimately wins.

        If you keep things at a nominal level the car with the most area under the curve wins.

        Things can go back and forth for a while as guys change pulleys, right?

        So people should focus more on the driveability, tune, and quality of the components as you can always change a pulley just for outright raw peak power.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
        We used the Rotrex for a reason. It's much much more difficult to work though! The supercharger pulleys are small and they have a high stop up ratio and therefore belt grip is absolutely essential. A Rotrex will fail to deliver much if the belt grip is poor and that is where this little rumour comes from where the Rotrex is not as good - incorrect setup.
        I strongly agree and the impeller sure seems to deliver more boost down low much more quickly.
      1. evolve's Avatar
        evolve -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nafoo Click here to enlarge
        Rotrex seems the way to go for us FBO N54 guys switching over to a SC S65, but the next question is AA Stage 2 vs. Evolve 625.

        AA Stage 2

        C38-92 (3.5" Inlet)
        8psi
        640hp

        $12,800 - 10% = $11,520

        Evolve 625

        C38-91 (3.0" Inlet)
        7-7.5psi
        625hp

        $14,250

        A lot of people have been praising Evolve's build quality, but AA's doesn't look too shabby either. What are the biggest differences between these two kits that set them apart from each other?

        I'm torn because there's a local shop to me that's an AA authorized dealer and Undercover is all the way up in Philly and I can save a couple thousand on AA.

        Let's discuss Click here to enlarge
        The biggest differences between the Evolve and AA Rotrex kits:

        - Evolve uses the existing pulley positions but converts to 8 Rib. AA extends the pulley further out and uses an independent drive. Evolve harder to fit (1 hour more) but there is less load on the crank.
        - FMIC majorly different routing. Evolve has a very short path going through the front panel without cutting. AA takes more conventional tube route but major major cutting is required to many parts. Clearly they thought (and rightly so in our opinion) that doing this for an FMIC setup was well worth it.
        - Air intake system majorly different. Evolve uses complex CAD designed intake running air filter in the lower air duct (high up). AA uses one on the back of the blower and makes a heat surround with a cold air feed.
        - FMIC setup vastly different, Evolve unit is very large, does create a higher pressure drop but compensates with excellent cooling capabilities.
        - AA uses a 92 trim housing vs Evolve 91. The bigger housing allows for a larger inlet but this makes no difference at all.
        - AA used 3 atmospheric BOV's. Evolve uses two recirculating
        - AA plenum cast - Evolve plenum CNC machined with internal deflectors to direct air equally accross cylinders to ensure no one cylinder has more air than the other.
        - AA uses longer velocity stacks than Evolve which uses shorter ones.

        These are the main differences. AA feel free to comment in case I have made any incorrect statements.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
        AA uses a 92 trim housing vs Evolve 91. The bigger housing allows for a larger inlet but this makes no difference at all.
        From what I read it's 3.5 inch versus 3.0 inch just on the inlet which at these boost levels is not a point of restriction.
      1. evolve's Avatar
        evolve -
        Sticky - I see your which angle you said more boost wins now.

        Looks like we all agree there.

        Take any of these blowers close to their limit on a stock engine and you will see only catastrophic results.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
        Sticky - I see your which angle you said more boost wins now.

        Looks like we all agree there.
        Exactly.

        If one guy loses he changes a pulley. The other guy loses he change a pulley. They can keep this game going until an engine lets go.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
        Take any of these blowers close to their limit on a stock engine and you will see only catastrophic results.
        Yep.
      1. evolve's Avatar
        evolve -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        From what I read it's 3.5 inch versus 3.0 inch just on the inlet which at these boost levels is not a point of restriction.
        It makes no difference even at the limit and beyond still. Already tested it.
        The 92 rear housing can be fitted to the 91 and vica versa.
        The 92 housing can help quite a bit IF there is restricted space for other inlets and depending on the angle and placement they can cause turbulence.
        However, we don't have that issue and therefore do not need the 92.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
        It makes no difference even at the limit and beyond still. Already tested it.
        The 92 rear housing can be fitted to the 91 and vica versa.
        The 92 housing can help quite a bit IF there is restricted space for other inlets and depending on the angle and placement they can cause turbulence.
        However, we don't have that issue and therefore do not need the 92.
        I see. I never really understood the point of the 92 then.
      1. evolve's Avatar
        evolve -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Exactly.

        If one guy loses he changes a pulley. The other guy loses he change a pulley. They can keep this game going until an engine lets go.



        Yep.
        I hope they change the tune too!
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
        I hope they change the tune too!
        Well you know how that goes. Some do, some don't. Click here to enlarge
      1. evolve's Avatar
        evolve -
        Now someone also pointed out boost on the Rotrex kits.

        Yes, 10 PSI is EASY to achieve on a Rotrex.

        However, is it 10 PSI with high temperature air or cold?

        The air mass changes massively.

        If we run our kits at 10 PSi you will have a mess of an engine to deal with in a very short period of time. Or... we will have to reduce timing and lower cylinder pressure with valve overlap to keep the engine safe. Therefore entering a scenario where big boost ... well... doesn't exactly do a lot!

        It will for a few dyno runs though and if we did this it would certainly help sell the kit with some inconsistent numbers.

        A bit like non intercooled blower kits. 1 hit wonders on the dyno and the road. HP being shown is best run. Real HP on the road is way less as IAT's rise.

        At 6.5 PSi we are making an equivalent of 625hp if we rate in dynojet numbers and in the same way other kits are rated.
        We just call it 600hp because of our dyno. We will change this now.

        At 8 PSi we make 630+ on our dyno. On dynojets we make well over 550 with this setup.

        However, the boost curve/air flow massively changes through the midrange. It's like someone changed for a different blower. The midrange boost goes up by quite a bit. Car becomes a complete tyre shredder and you can forget about the meaning of grip. You would need some excellent skills at a drag strip. Ask Imran...... he tried and utterly failed to get real grip until 4th gear on the 1/4mile and still managed a very very good trap speed.

        We can keep going too.....

        If our intercooler was less efficient we would need more boost or airflow to compensate for the lesser air mass to achieve the same on road results.

        This last statement is something that is hardly ever discussed. THERMAL EFFICIENCY.

        However, things might change with out kit soon. I have been talking to a company in the USA who specialises heavily in FMIC and charge cooling setups. They know way more than any of us tuners do due to them having developed for years in this areas from road cars to full out race cars.
        We may be able to improve the efficiency further, have a lower pressure drop and better temps.

        However.... then we hit another wall. We have to slow down the blower further taking is way from the current compressor path. We lose the midrange and keep the high end power. Why? Because we end up making too much boost with high air mass and the engine doesn't like that!
        Infact, we need a smaller blower then! A C38-81.

        See how much of a balancing act it all is!

        You must balance the correct boost curve with the best thermal efficiency.

        So we are dealing with compressor maps, pressure drop and thermal efficiency all at the same time!
        Thank god we can get away with just one injector size for all otherwise that's then an even bigger nightmare.

        Very rarely do I as a person say great things about my own stuff.

        However, in the case of our supercharger kit (which had many people involved in the development) I can comfortably say it is far ahead in terms of build quality, finish, engineering and taking many factors into account. It has the best thermal efficiency at the mid level boost category. It has by far the best drive and feel with a very nice response. It is the only kit out there that feels like the stock engine with just .... more.
        And no one yet even knows what the 8 PSI kit does :-)

        It's just the price is higher by around $2,000 on average.


        Oh and one more thing. I am currently working on a 7 PSI kit which has the same torque and midrange as the 8 PSi kit.
        How am I achieving this?
      1. evolve's Avatar
        evolve -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Well you know how that goes. Some do, some don't. Click here to enlarge
        That's why some have had major problems. Without telling the kit makers, they do this and then go back and complain something went wrong. In the open forum scene this is only known a little. In the real world of meets, face to face, telephone contact - it's an utterly different world of what actually goes on out there.
      1. evolve's Avatar
        evolve -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        Not true... There's an M3P member who has the Evolve kit, prob a few more floating around that aren't forum junkies, and I'm sure a lot more will start popping up after Xmas...... @bobS
        Thanks for mentioning that.

        We have a whole host of kits out there.

        I think people do notice that we don't really do a great deal to advertise our kit.

        The majority of our customer base comes from non forum posters and users. Usually people who don't have the time.

        The come and drive our demo car, they go drive another one and pick ours.

        It is being supplied to those who want the very best quality and overall delivery for a little more money.
        The way these guys figure it is - If we are going to spend 12, why not spend 14 and go for something that is taken to a higher level.

        It's not a kit that can really tell you much in pictures of videos.

        Actually, for us it is so much better this way. We don't have the forum wars like this, we sell an amount we are comfortable with (every evolve SC car gets a dyno session and we make sure we are hitting the safe targets we know are good).
        It's not ever going to be a high mass production type thing.

        However, we will make a non intercooled low boost 6 rib version for those who want to enter this upgrade and build up slowly. We may also give the option of a cast plenum to bring the price down to those who really want it.
        We can also produce the whole kit in the US and that saves quite a bit of money too because we lose the shipping and some parts are cheaper to make there.
        That's for the future though, lot's of other projects going on too which need more attention.
      1. evolve's Avatar
        evolve -
        If I missed anyone's questions - please do say.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
        Thanks for mentioning that.

        We have a whole host of kits out there.

        I think people do notice that we don't really do a great deal to advertise our kit.

        The majority of our customer base comes from non forum posters and users. Usually people who don't have the time.

        The come and drive our demo car, they go drive another one and pick ours.

        It is being supplied to those who want the very best quality and overall delivery for a little more money.
        The way these guys figure it is - If we are going to spend 12, why not spend 14 and go for something that is taken to a higher level.

        It's not a kit that can really tell you much in pictures of videos.

        Actually, for us it is so much better this way. We don't have the forum wars like this, we sell an amount we are comfortable with (every evolve SC car gets a dyno session and we make sure we are hitting the safe targets we know are good).
        It's not ever going to be a high mass production type thing.

        However, we will make a non intercooled low boost 6 rib version for those who want to enter this upgrade and build up slowly. We may also give the option of a cast plenum to bring the price down to those who really want it.
        We can also produce the whole kit in the US and that saves quite a bit of money too because we lose the shipping and some parts are cheaper to make there.
        That's for the future though, lot's of other projects going on too which need more attention.
        Are there any demos available on the West Coast or can I help with this somehow?
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
        If I missed anyone's questions - please do say.
        I have a question, are you prepared for the aftermath of the rampage im going to go on to smash world records and rip the paint off the competitions doors 2014?

        BTW, I cant post new threads, so here are afew more runs from last month, inlcluding the rematch with the ESS 650 E90 DCT (remember he ran 10.8 @128mph just the week before) I regret not coming prepared with sticky tires.. that will not happen again Click here to enlarge


        Still waiting on finish line videos to circulate, those are going to be goooooooood!
      1. AlexQuattro's Avatar
        AlexQuattro -
        LM,

        your car sounds and looks awesome man!

        I like it a alot!
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Alex325i Click here to enlarge
        LM,

        your car sounds and looks awesome man!

        I like it a alot!
        Thank you, im kinda fond of it as well Click here to enlarge
      1. nafoo's Avatar
        nafoo -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
        The biggest differences between the Evolve and AA Rotrex kits:

        - Evolve uses the existing pulley positions but converts to 8 Rib. AA extends the pulley further out and uses an independent drive. Evolve harder to fit (1 hour more) but there is less load on the crank.
        - FMIC majorly different routing. Evolve has a very short path going through the front panel without cutting. AA takes more conventional tube route but major major cutting is required to many parts. Clearly they thought (and rightly so in our opinion) that doing this for an FMIC setup was well worth it.
        - Air intake system majorly different. Evolve uses complex CAD designed intake running air filter in the lower air duct (high up). AA uses one on the back of the blower and makes a heat surround with a cold air feed.
        - FMIC setup vastly different, Evolve unit is very large, does create a higher pressure drop but compensates with excellent cooling capabilities.
        - AA uses a 92 trim housing vs Evolve 91. The bigger housing allows for a larger inlet but this makes no difference at all.
        - AA used 3 atmospheric BOV's. Evolve uses two recirculating
        - AA plenum cast - Evolve plenum CNC machined with internal deflectors to direct air equally accross cylinders to ensure no one cylinder has more air than the other.
        - AA uses longer velocity stacks than Evolve which uses shorter ones.

        These are the main differences. AA feel free to comment in case I have made any incorrect statements.
        Thanks for your input. I'm leaning towards Evolve, I just need to start demodding my 335 and gather up the funds.

        Do you have any installers in Texas? I was thinking about sending my car up to Undercover, but wouldn't the tune be a little off since the weather up there is so different from down here?