• ESS Tuning VT2-625 supercharged E92 M3 versus Evolve Automotive E600 supercharged E92 M3

      The reality is performance between supercharger kits on the E9X M3 S65 V8 with stock internals is all going to be relatively close. The differentiating factors are going to be the pulley and boost, tuning, fuel, transmission, etc. The Vortech based kits like the ESS VT2 car here will all hit relatively similar peak numbers. The main difference the Evolve kit offers is a Rotrex based supercharger kit which gives a different torque curve that is definitely a bit fatter in the mid range.


      So how do the two stack up in the real world? From a 45 mile per hour roll the Evolve kit hit a peak speed of 136.52 miles per hour and the ESS VT2-625 kit hit 133.92. Close, but 2.6 miles per hour is 2.6 miles per hour so the Evolve kit edges out the ESS kit up top. Now, with a pulley swap certainly the ESS kit could change the outcome here. Then the same goes for the Evolve kit also changing the pulley used for some more boost. Make of that back and forth what you will.

      It would have been nice to see these two cars run from a stop as they are on a drag strip. Why that race did not take place so we could see a timeslip providing more data than just a peak velocity BimmerBoost does not know. Both cars are DCT models. Enjoy the video below.

      This article was originally published in forum thread: ESS Tuning VT2-625 supercharged E92 M3 versus Evolve Automotive E600 supercharged E92 M3 started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 103 Comments
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        The V3si will have a CFM advantage at the very top depending of course how far you push the impeller. Anyone can look at the flow charts. Apparently one poster in this thread did not.
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sledgehammer Click here to enlarge
        Good run @LostMarine Depending on blower efficiency/size you could make more power with less boost its not at all uncommon. In this case your setup would respond to a smaller pulley and more boost. If the ESS kit is running a smaller pulley vs your car with a like pulley swap I think the top end difference is magnified in your favor based on prior results.
        Thanks, I know you of all people understand whats being shown here. Keyboard warriors that only regurgitate information and cant comprehend everything that is at play struggle with it.

        Cfm is nearly identical when corrected to the same atmospherics, so to say one has an advantage is moot. I mean your talking less than 50cfm, but I guess if y8u read stats at face value and not the factors and standards used to measure you might be confused, or ignorant Click here to enlarge

        First, I have an extremely efficient cooling system, as shown by the multiple dynos at multiple shops I took the car to, including MaxPSI. Even though the air was cold enough for both our cars to be performing very well, the vortech kit was probably seeing much higher iats than me, and the s65 is super sensitive to heat.
        That alone negates the 1 psi advantage he had.
        Second, what other simple minded people cant grasp, is that this setup delivers much more boost, much earlier and all the way through red line.
        What does that mean? Well, it means my motor is going through the rev range much faster, meaner more power sooner, which of c8urse means faster acceleration.
        Its really simple when your not binded by fanboism, and have actually driven other setups Click here to enlarge
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
        Keyboard warriors that only regurgitate information and cant comprehend everything that is at play struggle with it.
        Excellent point. I'm hoping it sinks in. Probably will sink in just as well as the basic math concerning gearing did.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
        Cfm is nearly identical when corrected to the same atmospherics, so to say one has an advantage is moot. I mean your talking less than 50cfm, but I guess if y8u read stats at face value and not the factors and standards used to measure you might be confused, or ignorant
        Click here to enlarge

        Click here to enlarge

        Anyone who thinks the cfm is identical is an idiot. Especially considering it isn't identical through the curve as that is a physical impossibility due to completely different impeller designs and sizes let alone the top end. It also depends on what rpm the impeller is being spun to. The fact of the matter is for the stock motor one blower works well at a certain rev range (wonder if someone will figure out which one and what range) and another has more leeway on the top end as well as the ability to be overspun always having greater top end CFM capability. Always.

        It's all there in the specs and compressor maps if one actually takes the time to look. Ultimately, whomever runs their blower the hardest wins. One can be spun further than the other but this also has pluses and minuses. End of story.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
        Second, what other simple minded people cant grasp, is that this setup delivers much more boost, much earlier and all the way through red line.
        The simple minded can't grasp this topic was covered on this site way back in 2012. The simple minded have a poor memory and poor reading comprehension. The simple minded remain simple minded: http://www.bimmerboost.com/content.p...no-comparisons
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        So, where is tne rotrex map with same conditions? Oh, thats right, you dont comprehend full statements. Everything u just wrote proved everything ive been saying, and disproves other claims youve been making. Its wonderful how someone can argue A in one thread, then B in another, when they directly conflict each other and they dont even realize it
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        We don't need to post compressor maps, everyone can just look at dyno sheets, run against some "equal" powered Vortech powered cars, or ride/drive in opposing supercharged M3s to notice the difference. A car with the Vortech drives like an on/off switch that won't be "on power" until you go above 6500 RPMs, while a Rotrex powered car puts down the same HP, a much wider powerband, and TQ across the entire rev range that won't force you to constantly rev the $#@! out the motor. This explains how LM (on a lower power kit) was able to keep even and trap the same speed as a higher powered ESS kit.

        We know that the Rotrex 7-7.5 psi, Exhaust & Stock S65 is good for 625-640 BHP, about the same BHP the max power Vortech kits achieve (depending on available fuels). But Active (and I believe Evolve will upon request) feel comfortable running the Rotrex at 8-9 psi on a stock motor for a 675-700 BHP.

        Bottom line is that it's pretty clear that the Rotrex C38 is a significantly better supercharger for the S65, from both a drivability and performance standpoint. The Rotrex essentially highlights and accentuates the NA S65s power curve and drivability, just with an additional ~200+ WHP.
      1. M&M's Avatar
        M&M -
        I ran a car recently that makes 60% more power throughout the rev-range right until the last 1000rpm of our respective powerbands. And every time, once I got to revving I passed him from behind on every run & opened him a by a fair margin thereafter. In a racing situation I will always go from a dig or rolling in 1st gear or any gear but from 6500rpm. We are here to race, not to do a low rev lugging contest. I have a diesel for that.

        In a racing situation with DCT after the initial hit in whatever gear, you NEVER see 6500rpm again. Every gearchange at redline sees the revs drop from 8400rpm to over 7000rpm. So the racing powerband is effectively 7000-8400rpm. Whichever car has more average power in that 1400rpm powerband will win. Nothing else matters in a racing situation. Having a fatter whatever at 4000rpm makes no difference.
      1. nafoo's Avatar
        nafoo -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        We don't need to post compressor maps, everyone can just look at dyno sheets, run against some "equal" powered Vortech powered cars, or ride/drive in opposing supercharged M3s to notice the difference. A car with the Vortech drives like an on/off switch that won't be "on power" until you go above 6500 RPMs, while a Rotrex powered car puts down the same HP, a much wider powerband, and TQ across the entire rev range that won't force you to constantly rev the $#@! out the motor. This explains how LM (on a lower power kit) was able to keep even and trap the same speed as a higher powered ESS kit.

        We know that the Rotrex 7-7.5 psi, Exhaust & Stock S65 is good for 625-640 BHP, about the same BHP the max power Vortech kits achieve (depending on available fuels). But Active (and I believe Evolve will upon request) feel comfortable running the Rotrex at 8-9 psi on a stock motor for a 675-700 BHP.

        Bottom line is that it's pretty clear that the Rotrex C38 is a significantly better supercharger for the S65, from both a drivability and performance standpoint. The Rotrex essentially highlights and accentuates the NA S65s power curve and drivability, just with an additional ~200+ WHP.
        Rotrex seems the way to go for us FBO N54 guys switching over to a SC S65, but the next question is AA Stage 2 vs. Evolve 625.

        AA Stage 2

        C38-92 (3.5" Inlet)
        8psi
        640hp

        $12,800 - 10% = $11,520

        Evolve 625

        C38-91 (3.0" Inlet)
        7-7.5psi
        625hp

        $14,250

        A lot of people have been praising Evolve's build quality, but AA's doesn't look too shabby either. What are the biggest differences between these two kits that set them apart from each other?

        I'm torn because there's a local shop to me that's an AA authorized dealer and Undercover is all the way up in Philly and I can save a couple thousand on AA.

        Let's discuss Click here to enlarge
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
        So, where is tne rotrex map with same conditions? Oh, thats right, you dont comprehend full statements. Everything u just wrote proved everything ive been saying, and disproves other claims youve been making. Its wonderful how someone can argue A in one thread, then B in another, when they directly conflict each other and they dont even realize it
        From the OP:

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        The main difference the Evolve kit offers is a Rotrex based supercharger kit which gives a different torque curve that is definitely a bit fatter in the mid range.
        Shortly afterward:

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
        Second, what other simple minded people cant grasp, is that this setup delivers much more boost, much earlier
        Someone has some trouble with reading comprehension... big trouble with it actually. Try reading before baselessly criticizing when the point you are trying to make was already made.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M&M Click here to enlarge
        I ran a car recently that makes 60% more power throughout the rev-range right until the last 1000rpm of our respective powerbands. And every time, once I got to revving I passed him from behind on every run & opened him a by a fair margin thereafter. In a racing situation I will always go from a dig or rolling in 1st gear or any gear but from 6500rpm. We are here to race, not to do a low rev lugging contest. I have a diesel for that.
        Once moving and once you are shifting from redline and are dropping down after each shift to a higher RPM it can favor the setup with more power in the last 1000 rpm. There would be different speeds and gears that would favor each setup.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M&M Click here to enlarge
        Every gearchange at redline sees the revs drop from 8400rpm to over 7000rpm. So the racing powerband is effectively 7000-8400rpm.
        Incorrect.

        Gear / Ratio / Max Speed / RPM drop on upshift
        1st 4.780 44
        2nd 2.933 71 5200
        3rd 2.153 97 6200
        4th 1.678 124 6500
        5th 1.390 150 6900
        6th 1.203 173 7300
        7th 1.000 208 7000

        It's after 5th gear you are over 7k on the shift.
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nafoo Click here to enlarge
        A lot of people have been praising Evolve's build quality, but AA's doesn't look too shabby either. What are the biggest differences between these two kits that set them apart from each other?
        HONESTLY, you can't go wrong with either. Both utilize the Rotrex C38, Air/Air Intercooling, 8-Rib Pulleys, etc. The Evolve hardware def appears OEM-spec, super high quality, with the manifold and all the piping, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about the quality/drivability of the tune or Evolve's customer service. BUT Active has a very established reputation in the BMW aftermarket scene and their not selling a shoddy product.


        I'd say drive both and make a decision from there.
      1. nafoo's Avatar
        nafoo -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        HONESTLY, you can't go wrong with either. Both utilize the Rotrex C38, Air/Air Intercooling, 8-Rib Pulleys, etc. The Evolve hardware def appears OEM-spec, super high quality, with the manifold and all the piping, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about the quality/drivability of the tune or Evolve's customer service. BUT Active has a very established reputation in the BMW aftermarket scene and their not selling a shoddy product.


        I'd say drive both and make a decision from there.
        Unfortunately, @LostMarine is the only one with an Evolve SC in the States right now Click here to enlarge

        But, one of my friends down here is about to pick up the AA Stage 3. Let's see how I feel about it once I get a chance to drive it.
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nafoo Click here to enlarge
        Unfortunately, @LostMarine is the only one with an Evolve SC in the States right now Click here to enlarge

        But, one of my friends down here is about to pick up the AA Stage 3. Let's see how I feel about it once I get a chance to drive it.
        Not true... There's an M3P member who has the Evolve kit, prob a few more floating around that aren't forum junkies, and I'm sure a lot more will start popping up after Xmas...... @bobS
      1. nafoo's Avatar
        nafoo -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        Not true... There's an M3P member who has the Evolve kit, prob a few more floating around that aren't forum junkies, and I'm sure a lot more will start popping up after Xmas...... @bobS
        Hopefully one near Texas.
      1. bobS's Avatar
        bobS -
        Ha I'm working on it... IMO the evolve kit is the way to go
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M&M Click here to enlarge
        I ran a car recently that makes 60% more power throughout the rev-range right until the last 1000rpm of our respective powerbands. And every time, once I got to revving I passed him from behind on every run & opened him a by a fair margin thereafter. In a racing situation I will always go from a dig or rolling in 1st gear or any gear but from 6500rpm. We are here to race, not to do a low rev lugging contest. I have a diesel for that.

        In a racing situation with DCT after the initial hit in whatever gear, you NEVER see 6500rpm again. Every gearchange at redline sees the revs drop from 8400rpm to over 7000rpm. So the racing powerband is effectively 7000-8400rpm. Whichever car has more average power in that 1400rpm powerband will win. Nothing else matters in a racing situation. Having a fatter whatever at 4000rpm makes no difference.
        Your comparing completely different cars, so saying the powerband of one to another makes no difference as each mwy be setup for its best. BUT, what would happen if YOU had more power throughout the powerband and consequently revved faster?

        Thats my point here
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nafoo Click here to enlarge
        Rotrex seems the way to go for us FBO N54 guys switching over to a SC S65, but the next question is AA Stage 2 vs. Evolve 625.

        AA Stage 2

        C38-92 (3.5" Inlet)
        8psi
        640hp

        $12,800 - 10% = $11,520

        Evolve 625

        C38-91 (3.0" Inlet)
        7-7.5psi
        625hp

        $14,250

        A lot of people have been praising Evolve's build quality, but AA's doesn't look too shabby either. What are the biggest differences between these two kits that set them apart from each other?

        I'm torn because there's a local shop to me that's an AA authorized dealer and Undercover is all the way up in Philly and I can save a couple thousand on AA.

        Let's discuss Click here to enlarge
        Im not going to talk in negatives since AA is a great option, and would be what I woukd have bought had evolve not come to market.

        Honestly though, Evolve quality is 1st place, there is no way around that. Picyires dont do it justice. You may not think its much, until you see them next to eachother and wish you had the finer parts.
        Next, 8 rib pulley system, CRUCIAL in using the rotrex as even weak vortechs will have belt slip, and the dont flow nearly as much as a rotrex down low.
        Belt slip brings 2 problems- 1 robs power, not the biggest issue, but your supercharging for a re ason, use every hp you can make.
        2- drivability. You will hate your car if it loses that precision throttle, trust me. It makes the car feel cheap and broken when it doesnt feel as smooth as NA

        Dont be like me and try to save a few pennies only having to do it over again and end up paying more..
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        From the OP:



        Shortly afterward:



        Someone has some trouble with reading comprehension... big trouble with it actually. Try reading before baselessly criticizing when the point you are trying to make was already made.
        But you said whichever runs more boost will win..I saidq wrong, and y8u started you uninformed rant.. so what happened there, you finally realized you dont need to run more boost, just have a better powerband with equal boost ?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
        But you said whichever runs more boost will win..I saidq wrong, and y8u started you uninformed rant.. so what happened there, you finally realized you dont need to run more boost, just have a better powerband with equal boost ?
        If one setup is at 9 and the other is at 6 I guess I'm wrong and the 6 will win if it's a certain kit because, um, what?

        Perhaps the context you are looking for is equal boost which you just brought up now after looking, well, like you usually do. Which you still have not phrased correctly as equal is not exactly possible it depends on the rpm you are spinning the impeller to. So perhaps what you should say is something along the lines of stock motor with the Vortech in the 5-8 psi range and the Rotrex in the 5-8 range. That might narrow things down and you might actually have a point instead of making blanket generalizations which make absolutely no sense.

        And secondly, it won't always be equal boost because one blower is capable of ultimately flowing more air. Even if you have equal boost one impeller may be out of its efficiency range and spinning so hard its generating too much heat.

        It completely depends on the build, setup, and what ranges you are running the blowers to. There are pluses and minuses to each.

        So, it's you that are wrong. Yet again...
      1. evolve's Avatar
        evolve -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Whomever runs more boost wins.
        Hi Sticky,

        I think you are joking here.