• 335/N54 fanboys get panties in a twist over a bolt on DCT E92 M3 pulling a JB4 tuned bolt on 335i

      Oh yes, here we go the millionth time, the ever popular 335 versus M3 discussion. A user posted the video below of a bolt on DCT E92 M3 pulling a JB4 tuned 335i in the forums and the N54 fanboys went for the pitchforks and torches. For whatever reason 335 owners in particular seem to really want to attack the E92 M3 perhaps in justification of their own purchase. There is the typical "oh I didn't get an M3 because a tuned 335 is faster" nonsense that N54 fanboys tend to comfort themselves with in the never ending M3 versus 335 debate.


      Even though the 335 in this video may have more power and torque in tuned form which the fanboys love to point out the other side of the coin is that the M3's redline and transmission are a huge advantage. Gearing is an area the M3 simply has an advantage over the 335 in and the transmission makes a big difference as one can see the shift speed in lower gears is really what gives the M3 the gains it sees in the race early on.

      Up top, the tuned 335's horsepower advantage comes into play as the cars spend more time in gear negating the gear change advantage provided by the DCT allowing the 335 to inch up and close the gap.

      This video is a good real world example as without race gas or meth a 335 will struggle against a tuned M3 especially one with DCT. Of course 335 owners will point out they can upgrade their turbos. Then M3 owners will say they can supercharge. Then the debate escalates and escalate and there are dozens of pages to read of M3 and 335 owners essentially throwing feces at each other. BMW fans, just enjoy 335 versus M3 round 400,000 in the video below.

      M3 is the camera car.

      This article was originally published in forum thread: New video-DCT m3 takes down a FBO 335 with jb4, downpipes, FMIC and intake started by Wannbm5 View original post
      Comments 315 Comments
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
        that's true... but, considering you're going completely all-out, even if the head wasn't a LIMITATION... was there absloutely no power for you to gain FOR THE MONEY - they're THAT good?
        For OEM heads they're damn good. I mean maybe Ferrari has better V8 heads now with the Italia? How many guys do you see posting headwork for the S65 or S85? Early on back in the day when a certain guy was talking about the stroker motors being the be all end all for performance on the S65 he went to have people look at his heads and the conclusion was it was not worth it.

        With a boosted motor or for someone eeking out every last HP I'm sure there is something to gain. There has to be. It just won't be as much as domestic heads because their motors aren't 100 hp per liter to begin with.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
        and the stock springs can handle the 20~psi of boost on them as WELL as the revs?
        The new set of BMW springs seems to be stronger. I'll check on my springs I don't even know what I'm running.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
        i mean, considering how much it's cost, and how long it's taken, at least getting it looked at would have been a drop in the ocean haha
        I wish I had more control and updates over my build but it is what it is. The amount of content I have to share for what I've spent disappoints me.
      1. G0TB00ST?'s Avatar
        G0TB00ST? -
        Also FYI the s54 is God's gift to the universe
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by G0TB00ST? Click here to enlarge
        My point was just that it's we are on a s65vsn54 thread on a BMW forum why are we debating Hondas.
        Honestly? Because we're that awesome. And because we have that much higher of an average knowledge level than other BMW forums. This is where the strong survive.

        We like to talk about anything as long as you can back your stuff up. And ultimately that is the most fun and I think in the next few weeks our core group will get better once some of the trash is taken out.

        So, the short answer to your question of why is knowledge, fun, and quality.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by G0TB00ST? Click here to enlarge
        Also FYI the s54 is God's gift to the universe
        Maybe some parallel universe.
      1. G0TB00ST?'s Avatar
        G0TB00ST? -
        I don't know how to respond to that? But I admitted I was wrong and need to learn how to finish reading
      1. justohigh's Avatar
        justohigh -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Honestly? Because we're that awesome. And because we have that much higher of an average knowledge level than other BMW forums. This is where the strong survive.

        We like to talk about anything as long as you can back your stuff up. And ultimately that is the most fun and I think in the next few weeks our core group will get better once some of the trash is taken out.

        So, the short answer to your question of why is knowledge, fun, and quality.

        Thats why I like this forum, no filters. I just like talking and reading about cars and don't mind this back and forth stuff. Everyone has their own opinion. I have also picked up a lot of info just by reading some of the arguments on this forum.
      1. Flinchy's Avatar
        Flinchy -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        For OEM heads they're damn good. I mean maybe Ferrari has better V8 heads now with the Italia? How many guys do you see posting headwork for the S65 or S85? Early on back in the day when a certain guy was talking about the stroker motors being the be all end all for performance on the S65 he went to have people look at his heads and the conclusion was it was not worth it.


        With a boosted motor or for someone eeking out every last HP I'm sure there is something to gain. There has to be. It just won't be as much as domestic heads because their motors aren't 100 hp per liter to begin with.
        Well fair enough... i always assume 'S' heads are top notch, but that's slightly surprising that even 800hp even approaching 1000hp, they're done.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        The new set of BMW springs seems to be stronger. I'll check on my springs I don't even know what I'm running.
        fair enough... a worthwhile thing knowing i'd say haha

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I wish I had more control and updates over my build but it is what it is. The amount of content I have to share for what I've spent disappoints me.
        true. it is what is is, and the end result will be awesome.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
        Well fair enough... i always assume 'S' heads are top notch, but that's slightly surprising that even 800hp even approaching 1000hp, they're done.
        Not sure what you mean by done? The heads aren't a limitation at those HP levels.
      1. G0TB00ST?'s Avatar
        G0TB00ST? -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Maybe some parallel universe.
        In the universe where we cracked 1000hp and climbing
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by G0TB00ST? Click here to enlarge
        In the universe where we cracked 1000hp and climbing
        That's a good universe.
      1. G0TB00ST?'s Avatar
        G0TB00ST? -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        That's a good universe.
        On a side note I just watched a video of your car at bimmerfest I'm guessing ... That sound... I fapped... I jizzed...everywhere
      1. Flinchy's Avatar
        Flinchy -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Not sure what you mean by done? The heads aren't a limitation at those HP levels.
        that's what i mean, they're 'done' in terms of work needed.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by G0TB00ST? Click here to enlarge
        On a side note I just watched a video of your car at bimmerfest I'm guessing ... That sound... I fapped... I jizzed...everywhere
        It was pretty impressive and the crowd enjoyed it. I enjoyed it. Finally coming to fruition and I'm happy.
      1. Wedge1967's Avatar
        Wedge1967 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
        The S65 has made 700 HP - and it makes torque across a very wide power-band, something the N54 is INCAPABLE of doing - why isn't that seen as important?
        I'm not saying and have never said the N54 was a better motor than the S54 or S65. It's a different motor and shouldn't be compared at that level. But to quote the N54 is INCAPABLE just goes to show you don't follow the N54 forums. 700 whp has been smashed with Stock Internals and the torque curve on an N54 would be hard to match. But again, I want to clarify, it's a completely different motor and should be on it's own category as the S54 and S65 are. As much as I enjoy giving Sticky and everyone else $#@! when they try to voice their superiority I have to admit the S engines are in a class of their own and should be. We might not see anything like it for many years to come from BMW as they have now taken the stance of cost reduction. Hopefully someone with balls will step in and change that and the M cars will get the motors they deserve in the future. The one thing that brings us all together is the fact we own and love our BMW's, and like Sticky, some more than others.
      1. z3speed4me's Avatar
        z3speed4me -
        Turbo M50 will own all... end of story.
      1. inlineS54B32's Avatar
        inlineS54B32 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Wedge1967 Click here to enlarge
        I'm not saying and have never said the N54 was a better motor than the S54 or S65. It's a different motor and shouldn't be compared at that level. But to quote the N54 is INCAPABLE just goes to show you don't follow the N54 forums. 700 whp has been smashed with Stock Internals and the torque curve on an N54 would be hard to match. But again, I want to clarify, it's a completely different motor and should be on it's own category as the S54 and S65 are. As much as I enjoy giving Sticky and everyone else $#@! when they try to voice their superiority I have to admit the S engines are in a class of their own and should be. We might not see anything like it for many years to come from BMW as they have now taken the stance of cost reduction. Hopefully someone with balls will step in and change that and the M cars will get the motors they deserve in the future. The one thing that brings us all together is the fact we own and love our BMW's, and like Sticky, some more than others.
        You didn't read my post - I said:

        "The S65 has made 700 HP (post said this hasn't been seen on the S65) - and it makes torque across a very wide power-band, something the N54 is INCAPABLE of doing - why isn't that seen as important?"

        The power-band of the S65 and the N54/55 are two completely different animals. I was referring to the shape and length of the output curve. One is perfectly flat and long - the other is not. An engine builder strives to have a torque curve that is perfectly flat - like an electric motor as an example. The longer that plateau extends (RPM) - the better also.

        The redline of the N54/55 isn't going to increase to S65 levels without some insane amount of work - and turbos that can breath. As you said - they shouldn't even be compared at this level. One is made for a completely different purpose.

        For motorsport, I personally don't see how they can be compared - but that's not everyone's concern - which is completely understandable. For tractability purposes - and overall fun, I can definitely see an argument here - but after driving both, would still be disappointed with lag. For mashing down the gas - and having a fast fun car that makes a ton of power for not much money? Yes, no doubt - the N54/55 has it beat. No argument there.

        It does suck that BMW is choosing to go down this path for their M brand; I am still hoping they have some amazing/secret formula that gives 90% of the response of their NA motors of the past, but looking at the X5M/X6M/1M/M5/M6 - it doesn't look like they will. We'll see - I am definitely curious.
      1. Wedge1967's Avatar
        Wedge1967 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
        You didn't read my post - I said:

        "The S65 has made 700 HP (post said this hasn't been seen on the S65) - and it makes torque across a very wide power-band, something the N54 is INCAPABLE of doing - why isn't that seen as important?"

        The power-band of the S65 and the N54/55 are two completely different animals. I was referring to the shape and length of the output curve. One is perfectly flat and long - the other is not. An engine builder strives to have a torque curve that is perfectly flat - like an electric motor as an example. The longer that plateau extends (RPM) - the better also.

        The redline of the N54/55 isn't going to increase to S65 levels without some insane amount of work - and turbos that can breath. As you said - they shouldn't even be compared at this level. One is made for a completely different purpose.

        For motorsport, I personally don't see how they can be compared - but that's not everyone's concern - which is completely understandable. For tractability purposes - and overall fun, I can definitely see an argument here - but after driving both, would still be disappointed with lag. For mashing down the gas - and having a fast fun car that makes a ton of power for not much money? Yes, no doubt - the N54/55 has it beat. No argument there.

        It does suck that BMW is choosing to go down this path for their M brand; I am still hoping they have some amazing/secret formula that gives 90% of the response of their NA motors of the past, but looking at the X5M/X6M/1M/M5/M6 - it doesn't look like they will. We'll see - I am definitely curious.
        +1 I shouldn't post without drinking my coffee in the morning. LOL
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Wedge1967 Click here to enlarge
        I'm not saying and have never said the N54 was a better motor than the S54 or S65. It's a different motor and shouldn't be compared at that level. But to quote the N54 is INCAPABLE just goes to show you don't follow the N54 forums. 700 whp has been smashed with Stock Internals and the torque curve on an N54 would be hard to match. But again, I want to clarify, it's a completely different motor and should be on it's own category as the S54 and S65 are. As much as I enjoy giving Sticky and everyone else $#@! when they try to voice their superiority I have to admit the S engines are in a class of their own and should be. We might not see anything like it for many years to come from BMW as they have now taken the stance of cost reduction. Hopefully someone with balls will step in and change that and the M cars will get the motors they deserve in the future. The one thing that brings us all together is the fact we own and love our BMW's, and like Sticky, some more than others.
        He didn't say the power was incapable of being made he said the torque curve over such a wide powerband the N54 is incapable of and he's correct.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        ^ Well you guys already handled that lol I responded before reading the rest.
      1. inlineS54B32's Avatar
        inlineS54B32 -
        lol - I have a bad habit of doing the same thing