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    • The "M" motor is officially dead, no more unique/ground up M engines - BMW confirms all future M (S series) motors to be based on motors already in production

      So you know that awesome BMW S85 V10 revving over 8000 rpm giving somewhat of a direct link to the Motorsport division that seemed equally at home in an Italian exotic as it did under the hood of a BMW sport sedan? Yep, that one with the individual throttle bodies, over 100 horses per liter, that won all those awards, and that you could not get anything like it in a 550i, 545i, 535i, 530i, 528, or 525i? You know, a real unique M motor made specifically for an M car and only available in an M car? Say goodbye to ever seeing that again.


      From now on, every M motor will simply be based on an engine already in production. That means whatever cylinder count and block is already available in a chassis is all you will ever get standard model or M model be damned. The M purist has been moaning about this for years that BMW M motors will essentially just become their standard counterparts with some different software but the head of BMW M (Friedrich Nitschke) finally officially confirmed the days of the unique M motor built from the ground up by the M division are quite simply, over:


      So the engines will be closer to the standard engines. We already see that in the N63/S63 motors a good example being the X5 50i and X5 M. For BMW this means huge cost savings and that certain internal parts do not even need to be changed. For example, the same pistons can be used for both an M and non-M motor now:


      This is obviously a cost saving measure. BMW can share blocks, internals, and change software yet charge a huge premium. They can even offer performance software as a quick cash grab without having to change any hardware. The cost for the consumer doesn't become more affordable (M models are actually getting more expensive) but the profit margin for BMW increases. You get less, both for your dollar and in hardware choices, yet they make more. Hey, BimmerBoost tried to warn you.

      So don't expect to see anything made by the M-Division like an S54 ever again. Or an S38. Or an S65. Or an S85. Or an S14. Those are not motors you can just slap different software on and simply call M engines. The M division is officially dead kids along with BMW's pride, get it through your heads.

      This information all comes from an intereview by Car and Driver with head of M Friedrich Nitschke. It's quite amusing to see him believe the garbage he is spewing to Car and Driver. Some great lines to read:




      The M5 and M6 are on a level with the competition weight wise? All wheel drive is too heavy? The competition has all wheel drive and weighs the same as BMW with rear wheel drive if not slightly less. A recent comparison of convertible GT's had the F12 BMW M6 come in last place because of poor driving dynamics and the heaviest curb weight by far with the car not offering much more than straightline acceleration.

      What the hell is Nitschke talking about?

      Game over kids, BMW M has buried their heads so far in the sand they can't smell their own BS.

      This article was originally published in forum thread: The "M" motor is officially dead, no more unique/ground up M engines - BMW confirms all future M (S series) motors to be based on motors already in production started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 181 Comments
      1. GuidoK's Avatar
        GuidoK -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        People abroad are taxed by displacement but how does this change that BMW can not do an NA motor any longer? Honda, toyota, GM, Ford, Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Mercedes, Audi, basically everyone still does NA motors so this is a load of crap.
        No it is not and if you don't get that you definately should get out of the US.
        You think we (as in the rest of the world) drive fords with big v8's?!?
        No, we drive a focus with a 2.0 4 cilinder. That's how the rest of the world lives. And even ferrari, lamborghini, aston martin etc take their decisions into co2 emission policy's. But there is one differnce: here a ferrari starts at $350.000. And people are willing to spend that much on a car like that. But they are never going to pay that for a BMW, or most audi's and mercs for that matter.
        Brands like honda and toyota do NA engines because they are small and powerless. Performance is not their key selling point. Price and practicality etc is.
        BMW, like audi and mercedes hoover somewhere in the middel, where they need to make relatively powerful cars which can be afforded to to ensure a certain premium image while the bulk of the sales goes through their 2.0 litre models.
        And that's why AMG now feature turbo engines, and that's why audi is going to use turbo engines. And BMW gets that, so they are going to follow that stratigy too. Only you don't seem to get that. If you think they are that stupid at BMW AG, then how come BMW nowadays sells more than twice the amount mercedes is selling globally, and that's an recent market share, because not too lang ago Mercedes was a lot bigger than bmw.

        Don't you get that if an M5 costs $30.000 more than an future RS6 or AMG nobody is going to buy an M5?

        Oh and if the USA market doesn't matter why are we constantly reminded by BMW the USA is their largest market (which it is) and also why do we get the manual transmission for the E60, E63, F10, and F13 but the rest of the world doesn't? What this has to do with the topic though I have no clue.
        USA isn't their largest market, it's their largest market as a country. Thats a big difference (I think I don't have to explain that now do I?; you really think that BMW sells more cars in the US alone than in the rest of the world?!?)
        And here you can also get a manual tranny in an F10. There are afaik no transmissions developed specifically for the US. Besides that swapping over transmission is a lot easier than developing an engine (bmw doesn't even make their own transmissions, they order them from ZF and Getrag).
        It's an optional extra in a modular system. Just like you can get different colors laquer or ineriors in different countries.
        Certainly a high powerful engine costs a lot to develop and produce. Engines developed specifically for local markets is very rare, so you can only reserve limited budget for that development. The last time BMW did that they came up with the S52, and we all know what a bad job they did with that.Click here to enlarge

        Really, you have to let go the idea that everyting in the world is US focussed, because it just isn't. The rest of the world is a lot bigger. Also for BMW. They are a global player who cannot survive on US sales alone.
      1. inlineS54B32's Avatar
        inlineS54B32 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GuidoK Click here to enlarge
        No it is not and if you don't get that you definately should get out of the US.
        You think we (as in the rest of the world) drive fords with big v8's?!?
        No, we drive a focus with a 2.0 4 cilinder. That's how the rest of the world lives. And even ferrari, lamborghini, aston martin etc take their decisions into co2 emission policy's. But there is one differnce: here a ferrari starts at $350.000. And people are willing to spend that much on a car like that. But they are never going to pay that for a BMW, or most audi's and mercs for that matter.
        Brands like honda and toyota do NA engines because they are small and powerless. Performance is not their key selling point. Price and practicality etc is.
        BMW, like audi and mercedes hoover somewhere in the middel, where they need to make relatively powerful cars which can be afforded to to ensure a certain premium image while the bulk of the sales goes through their 2.0 litre models.
        And that's why AMG now feature turbo engines, and that's why audi is going to use turbo engines. And BMW gets that, so they are going to follow that stratigy too. Only you don't seem to get that. If you think they are that stupid at BMW AG, then how come BMW nowadays sells more than twice the amount mercedes is selling globally, and that's an recent market share, because not too lang ago Mercedes was a lot bigger than bmw.

        Don't you get that if an M5 costs $30.000 more than an future RS6 or AMG nobody is going to buy an M5?


        USA isn't their largest market, it's their largest market as a country. Thats a big difference (I think I don't have to explain that now do I?; you really think that BMW sells more cars in the US alone than in the rest of the world?!?)
        And here you can also get a manual tranny in an F10. There are afaik no transmissions developed specifically for the US. Besides that swapping over transmission is a lot easier than developing an engine (bmw doesn't even make their own transmissions, they order them from ZF and Getrag).
        It's an optional extra in a modular system. Just like you can get different colors laquer or ineriors in different countries.
        Certainly a high powerful engine costs a lot to develop and produce. Engines developed specifically for local markets is very rare, so you can only reserve limited budget for that development. The last time BMW did that they came up with the S52, and we all know what a bad job they did with that.Click here to enlarge

        Really, you have to let go the idea that everyting in the world is US focussed, because it just isn't. The rest of the world is a lot bigger. Also for BMW. They are a global player who cannot survive on US sales alone.

        Dude, I don't know how to get this through your head. This is about M series BMWs - it's not about efficiency, or tending to the needs of people who want cars with mediocre as opposed to terrible gas mileage. Drive an S54 or S65 powered M3, then drive a 1m or 335i - you'll understand the frustration.

        This is not about anything but M-series cars with S motors. Talking about S6s and what car is more expensive but has better mileage but isn't purchased because of XYZ is ridiculous - this is about the EPITOME of BMW M series cars coming to a head. Catering to the common denominator. It's a load of crap.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GuidoK Click here to enlarge
        No it is not and if you don't get that you definately should get out of the US.
        You think we (as in the rest of the world) drive fords with big v8's?!?
        No, we drive a focus with a 2.0 4 cilinder. That's how the rest of the world lives. And even ferrari, lamborghini, aston martin etc take their decisions into co2 emission policy's.
        What is your point? Can you purchase a Ford or any of the cars I mentioned in your country? Yes, so?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GuidoK Click here to enlarge
        here a ferrari starts at $350.000. And people are willing to spend that much on a car like that. But they are never going to pay that for a BMW, or most audi's and mercs for that matter.
        This changes BMW being able to meet emissions with an NA motor today how?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GuidoK Click here to enlarge
        Don't you get that if an M5 costs $30.000 more than an future RS6 or AMG nobody is going to buy an M5?
        Don't you get I don't care and this isn't the point?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GuidoK Click here to enlarge
        USA isn't their largest market, it's their largest market as a country. Thats a big difference (I think I don't have to explain that now do I?; you really think that BMW sells more cars in the US alone than in the rest of the world?!?)
        I think its self-evident when discussing the largest market that it is broken up by country. Not a big difference at all, the USA is their largest market. And? This once again has what to do with meeting emissions standards which BMW is more than capable of?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GuidoK Click here to enlarge
        And here you can also get a manual tranny in an F10. There are afaik no transmissions developed specifically for the US.
        You sure? The F10 M5 manual is US only I believe. I think you are confusing the F10 in general with the F10 M5 manual. I think you have DCT only.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GuidoK Click here to enlarge
        Really, you have to let go the idea that everyting in the world is US focussed, because it just isn't.
        I'm sorry your inventing this argument out of thin air really. This thread has to deal with M motors and now apparently if BMW can make NA motors meet emissions standards which considering so many other companies do I think the best engine builder in the world (or who used to be) definitely could as well.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
        Dude, I don't know how to get this through your head. This is about M series BMWs - it's not about efficiency, or tending to the needs of people who want cars with mediocre as opposed to terrible gas mileage. Drive an S54 or S65 powered M3, then drive a 1m or 335i - you'll understand the frustration.

        This is not about anything but M-series cars with S motors. Talking about S6s and what car is more expensive but has better mileage but isn't purchased because of XYZ is ridiculous - this is about the EPITOME of BMW M series cars coming to a head. Catering to the common denominator. It's a load of crap.
        Seemed pretty clear what this was about to me.
      1. GuidoK's Avatar
        GuidoK -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
        Dude, I don't know how to get this through your head. This is about M series BMWs - it's not about efficiency, or tending to the needs of people
        It's about why BMW is going to follow the strategy they have chosen. And you seem not to understand that strategy, or at least not to agree with it. Big deal. you're not BMW AG

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Seemed pretty clear what this was about to me.
        And I'm sure bmw would grand your whishes if you would buy every /m that rolls of the production line. But as that is not the case, BMW is going to make cars they think they can sell. Cause that's their business: selling cars.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        This changes BMW being able to meet emissions with an NA motor today how?
        It doesn't work that way. It is not meeting emissions, it's being taxes by it and therefore not being able to sell the car. Think of it this way: BMW /m cars are not produced for the US, they are produced for the whole world


        Don't you get I don't care and this isn't the point?
        To BMW AG it is Click here to enlarge


        You sure? The F10 M5 manual is US only I believe. I think you are confusing the F10 in general with the F10 M5 manual. I think you have DCT only.
        Oh I'm sorry, I seemed to have missed the 'M5' in your previous post:
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        and also why do we get the manual transmission for the E60, E63, F10, and F13 but the rest of the world doesn't? What this has to do with the topic though I have no clue.
        Oh wait, there wasn't any Click here to enlarge

        I'm sorry your inventing this argument out of thin air really. This thread has to deal with M motors and now apparently if BMW can make NA motors meet emissions standards which considering so many other companies do I think the best engine builder in the world (or who used to be) definitely could as well.
        Once again, it is not being able to meet standards, it is the taxing of emissions produced by a certain desired power output. That's why they're taking the turbocharged route. It's obvious that you're incapable of thinking outside the box (the US box that is), otherwise you would understand my posts and understand why bmw is turbocharging their engines. An NA engine with -say- 500hp will be a lot more expensive than a turbocharged engine with the same HP. And if AMG is turbocharging, and RS is going to do that, bmw also has to do that or they end up with an m3 or m5 which is far more expensive than the competition and they won't sell enough cars.
        What good is an /m car that is too expensive to buy?

        And they're taking a normal block with few modifications because they seem to think that that engine is up to the job. We'll see if that's true or false.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GuidoK Click here to enlarge
        And I'm sure bmw would grand your whishes if you would buy every /m that rolls of the production line. But as that is not the case, BMW is going to make cars they think they can sell. Cause that's their business: selling cars.
        Their sales are through the roof. And you're telling me this means they can't make better M cars? Lighter M cars? Or NA M cars?

        How is Porsche selling more and making lighter and high revving NA cars? OR what about Porsche giving the consumer the choice? They can do it but BMW can't? Even though BMW has more volume? Huh?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GuidoK Click here to enlarge
        It doesn't work that way. It is not meeting emissions, it's being taxes by it and therefore not being able to sell the car. Think of it this way: BMW /m cars are not produced for the US, they are produced for the whole world
        Once again, others are doing this and selling cars. And I bought a V8 M car as have many others so what's your point really? That your country has screwed up car taxes?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GuidoK Click here to enlarge
        Oh I'm sorry, I seemed to have missed the 'M5' in your previous post:
        And apparently in this thread as when I just mentioned those cars getting manuals only that would mean... uh the M versions. Guess you didn't know the US market got those no sweat I'm here to educate.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GuidoK Click here to enlarge
        Once again, it is not being able to meet standards, it is the taxing of emissions produced by a certain desired power output. That's why they're taking the turbocharged route. It's obvious that you're incapable of thinking outside the box (the US box that is), otherwise you would understand my posts and understand why bmw is turbocharging their engines.
        How do any naturally aspirated cars period sell in your country then? Huh?

        Plus don't more cars sell in a week in a California than in your country all year? Seriously, your own taxes are your own problem the world's largest car market doesn't care not that is even the issue.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GuidoK Click here to enlarge
        And if AMG is turbocharging, and RS is going to do that, bmw also has to do that or they end up with an m3 or m5 which is far more expensive than the competition and they won't sell enough cars.
        What good is an /m car that is too expensive to buy?
        Once again, do 63 AMG's not sell in your country? Or the SLS? Or the GT3? Or the 458 Italia? Or the Gallardo? Or the Aventador? Or the Corvette? Or the Viper? Or the RS4? Or the RS5? Or, I mean, I could go on do I need to? These all slip your mind somehow?
      1. GuidoK's Avatar
        GuidoK -
        If you know best as you claim you do, then why don't you start your own car company?
        If you're that sure, it's a missed oppertunity if you ask me.Click here to enlarge
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GuidoK Click here to enlarge
        If you know best as you claim you do, then why don't you start your own car company?
        Well I really should just be put in charge of BMW.

        I mean if you guys want to start a car company fund for me I'm down...
      1. GuidoK's Avatar
        GuidoK -
        Trust me, you can do better on your own. (I'd hate to see bmw go bankruptClick here to enlarge).

        And with global intersts on an all time low, funding shouldn't be a problem rightClick here to enlarge
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GuidoK Click here to enlarge
        Trust me, you can do better on your own. (I'd hate to see bmw go bankruptClick here to enlarge).

        And with global intersts on an all time low, funding shouldn't be a problem rightClick here to enlarge
        You're right, I'll have to do this myself. BMW's head is too far up its own ass anyway.
      1. Mike@VAC's Avatar
        Mike@VAC -
        The S5X US engines get a lot of $#@! from enthusiasts, but it's the most reliable 'M' engine by far. For severe track use, a S52 E36M3 is really hard to beat.

        That said, I am a sucker for:
        S38
        S14
        S54
        S65

        All legends. The V10 is cool, but the S65 impresses me more. S65 is the ultimate M engine IMO. This new stuff will probably work well, but it's def not the same. That said, I'm sure these new cars will rip.
      1. Autobahn335i's Avatar
        Autobahn335i -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge

        Once again, do 63 AMG's not sell in your country? Or the SLS? Or the GT3? Or the 458 Italia? Or the Gallardo? Or the Aventador? Or the Corvette? Or the Viper? Or the RS4? Or the RS5? Or, I mean, I could go on do I need to? These all slip your mind somehow?
        The 63 AMG is considered to be the last remaining dinosaur.

        How many SLS does Mercedes sell compared to the M3 sales? How many GT3s by Porsche? How many 458s? How many Gallardos/Aventadors?

        The sale figures of these cars/companies are so MARGINAL that the manufacturers can deal with the higher taxes related to the emissions. But even Lamborghini has to think about ways to reduce emissions on future engines e.g. turbo charging...
      1. DavidV's Avatar
        DavidV -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Once again, do 63 AMG's not sell in your country?
        The Netherlands as an example (tax and other car disencouraging rues) are irrelevant.
        The CO2 rules and future overall CO2 reduction demands are set by the EU and apply thrue the European Union to all in Europe situated car manufacturers.
        And thus are a global affair.
        You might not like it, but that is just the way it is.
      1. Alpina_B3_Lux's Avatar
        Alpina_B3_Lux -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        That's why I'm running the site you're reading, eh?
        That does not qualify you for anything. Lots of people are running sites about topics they don't quite understand. That's the internet for you.


        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        You can't make an S54 comply with todays emissions standards but 8.4 liter V10's and 6.2 liter V8's revving to over 8000 rpm can? Huh? Would you please explain why?
        Yes I tried to, but apparently you're not capable of reading anything properly.

        For your benefit, once again: Of course they could do it. They just won't, because it's too expensive to re-engineer an old engine, and NA motors in general are too inefficient emissions wise.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        You can't put an S65 into a 1M why? Didn't M motors get in Z3/Z4's and they were priced competitively?
        See above. McFly, somebody home? Of course you can. It's just not possible to do it and sell the 1M at a competitive price. That and the time constraints were the reasons they didn't do it. You always seem to insinuate bad intentions on their part, but I can see no sign for this except in your imagination.


        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Oh, right, displacement has nothing to do with it. And the engine design of the S54, which is more advanced than many NA motors on the market meeting emission standards today, couldn't possibly meet those same standards? Huh? Because you need special tests? Huh?
        Others have already tried to explain this to you in more detail. If you're still not capable of understanding it, I can't help you.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Perhaps you just need a certain set of cats somewhere (um you do know the E46 M3 met stricter emission standards in the USA than it did in Europe right? OMG how was that possible?) You're just bringing up things without any support. Apparently getting an S54 to pass emissions which it was doing up until 2006 (and this motor was sold to other companies after this for quite some time) is some kind of impossibility because of "hoops to jump through." But the Viper can do it with basically the same motor its always had. The C6 Z06 can do it somehow too. Okie dokie, whatever you say.
        See above. Read a bit more about emissions (worldwide) and then come back, hopefully more educated.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        So a couple million X1's, X3's, 3 GT's, 5 GT's, don't offset any of this? Nor the i3, i8, etc.? I wonder how Mercedes does it? Companies are getting it done. BMW gave up. That's the truth.
        Each project at BMW has to comply with the current emission rules in the markets where they want to sell it. Not only in the US. No offsetting possible there, unfortunately.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Oh of course, no research and no reading here. I just make things up as I go. I don't even know what a 1M is really although I've written and read more about it than... you.
        Yes, apparently. At least that's the only conclusion possible from what you're writing.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        If I bought a 1M coupe I would feel cheated. Hence why I would never buy one. It's not an M car, it's a parts bin mash up designed to take advantage of people who don't know any better. It's a marketing exercise. BMW saws if they could get away with a non-M motor in an M car and they did it. And you defend it. They give you less for more money and you applaud it. Sheep.
        And you still don't see that you've fallen yourself big-time for the M marketing strategy. It's just you're 20 years too late...Click here to enlarge

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        The N54 isn't on the level of M motors. It isn't an M motor. It isn't great IMO. I've driven it and never felt like I wanted one. That's why I have a real M car, not one pretending to be one.
        If they had called it S54 and put it into the E9x M3 instead of the V8 - which was a real option while they were deciding on the engine of the M3 - you would have loved it and called it a true M engine. Seems quite hypocrite to me. You're more attached to a letter then than to any real performance of an engine. That's rather sad.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Why not applaud them? Because it isn't an M car. It's a parts bin car not worthy of the name. And this is going to happen more and more often now.
        The whole 1 series (and X1 and others) are part bins. That's the major strategy of all car manufacturers who want to be competitive today. Granted, the US manufacturers haven't caught up to that yet, but they will eventually. The whole 1 series shares a platform with the E9x series. Same for the new 1 series and the F3x series. That's the way cars are made today. Get used to it.

        Nothing wrong in using good and tested (suspension) parts from the M3 in a 1 series. Why not if it works? If you want something bespoke, you have to go to a non-mass-market manufacturer like McLaren. Because even Aston Martin uses the same platform and engine on all their cars, and Lamborghini shares one with Audi, and so on and so forth.

        Now, I understand that in your book these are all part bins. That seems quite absurd to me, but you certainly have a right to your own strange logic.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        The E30 M3 was sold until 1992 and raced as well. You sure you don't need to do more reading?
        The E36 M3 started to sell in 1992, as others have tried to explain to you. So of course a major part of its development was made in the 1980s.

        I know it's a real challenge for you to admit you're wrong anywhere. One can see that in any discussion you're involved. Not really a sign of a very flexible mindset, but if it makes you happy...

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        You're telling me the S50B32 was developed in the 80's yet it didn't make it into the E36 M3 until 1995? So while BMW knew they were going to replace the E30 at some point they weren't sitting there working on the M3 in the 80's. They first got the E36 out and then M3 development took place as it always does. And you're telling me to read?
        See above...

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Sorry, nothing about the 1995 M3 delivered to the USA was developed in the 80's. Although the E36 was obviously on the drawing board I hardly think all models and upgrades were planned out. The development of the model went on mostly in the 90's and far into the 90's at that. The S50B32 isn't an 80's design, sorry, it was built in the 90's after E36's were already on the road.
        See above...

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        It's difficult to speak to someone this far behind on a topic.
        You're not speaking at all. You're just making yourself look worse by arguing where there's really no argument at all behind it. It's still funny to observe, though.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        There's making money and there is selling out. BMW has sold out. What are you having trouble with?
        I'm having trouble with you calling everything that is not natural aspirated and not completely bespoke "not worthy" of being called an M car. That is quite a ridiculous notion and seems to point to some kind of complex you have.

        I don't like many of the new M models either, in particular the SUVs. But taking it out on the 1M Coupé which in my opinion was a great idea is not justified.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        So admit the engine is part of the M package? Yet have no problem with not having an M engine as part of that package? You're contradicting yourself then. The 1M is not a true M car you even admit it right here. Even BMW M admits it by stating the motor was not developed by M. It's not an M car, it never will be.
        I'm not contradicting myself at all, if you took the trouble to read my sentences carefully (not one of your strong points, I know, but try to make an effort here). Having a successful M car is not only about the engine. As was demonstrated before, BMW has very often taken an existing engine, tweaked it a bit and combined it with suspension modifications and an LSD. That's a good recipe, and with the 1M they did the same thing, except that being a turbo engine they didn't have to do any hardware modifications - also due to the fact that this engine was developed for much higher hp output (as an M3 option, see above) anyway. So no, I don't have any problem with having a N54 in an M car.


        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        No, telling you M is dead is not speculation and has nothing to do with whether I know you or not. It has everything to do with BMW's own actions. Your existence has no impact on it one way or another.
        Of course it doesn't. Just as anything you write here has no impact at all.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        You seem to be the one in need of education if you wish to defend BMW ditching their storied M engine history. The motors won't be as special, simple as that.
        I'm simply trying to explain some rather simple points to you. But this seems to overcharge you, unfortunately.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Weird. I just got back from an ALMS race where BMW was using a motor based on their street car. The E30 M3 was built for what exactly by the way? Was it DTM Racing? The E46 M3 GTR was built why? Wasn't it for homologation for ALMS? The M3 got a V8 why? Just because? The V10 in the M5 was linked to what? Wasn't it formula 1? The plant that made engine blocks for Formula 1, didn't it make the S65 and S85 engine blocks too and don't they have the same aluminum-silicon makeup the race car blocks did?
        That the V10 was based on some F1 engine was always just a cleverly placed rumour. It seems you also fell for that one and I feel a bit sorry for you. Apparently BMW marketing is quite ingenious!

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        No components? Really? You're trying to talk to me when you have no clue what you are saying? M stands for Motorsport, that's what it is supposed to be. When BMW races, it's BMW MOTORSPORT doing the racing. That same division overseas M cars and Motors. What don't you get?
        Sure they do the racing. Just as with other companies. That doesn't mean that any parts are used in street cars or that the race cars are even based on street cars.

        I agree that it should be that way, Audi and Porsche or Ferrari certainly do it. BMW does not have a real sports car in their portfolio any more, which is why they need to conceive some cars as the Z4 that look somewhat like street cars but have almost nothing in common with them.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Take a look at the E30 M3 EVO III sometime, the E46 M3 CSL, the E92 M3 GTS, the M3 CRT, The E36 M3 lightweight, etc. Where have you been? Only Porsche can pull this off? Tell Mercedes and their Black Series sometime. Tell Ferrari too.
        That was in the past. Nowadays for BMW it's different. I also regret this, you know, but that's how it is.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Racing HAD everything to do with it. Now they have fallen off, building cheaper crap for people to buy and plastering M badges on everything. M has fallen from grace, been diluted, that is the whole problem.
        Yes. But I wouldn't include the 1M Coupé in your tirade. I think that's basically where we are of a different opinion.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Wrong again because BMW actually raced that six-cylinder in the E46 M3. All they ever did with the N54 was put it in SUV's and their regular cars because that's what that motor was designed for. Efficiency, not motorsport. I never saw an SUV with an S54 or S65 in it, did you?
        I never argued about the E46. Why do you bring that up?

        As for the N54 in an M car, why not, it could have happened with the E9x M3 already except that due to not having done a turbo petrol engine since a long time they thought it too big a risk and put it off to the next generation.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        The 1M is not the closest car to the Motorsport term, get out of here with that nonsense. Since the CSL that would be the M3 GTS. Especially considering it has a motor BMW actually races. And is a real M car.
        It's not nonsense at all, it's reality actually. The M3 GTS was a ridiculously overpriced attempt to slam some carbon fiber parts and a roll cage into a car and call it a day. It's slow, too expensive and only a handful of cars were built anyway, so I'd never compare it to the CSL or the 1M Coupé which were cars for real racing enthusiasts.

        Alpina_B3_Lux
      1. Autobahn335i's Avatar
        Autobahn335i -
        ^ Oh noes, you've criticized Sticky's holy grail, the M3 GTS. How dare you?!

        This thread sure delivers! Click here to enlarge

        Now someone get Sticky to drive a 1M. Tie him in there if necessary Click here to enlarge Maybe that will change his opinion...
      1. Alpina_B3_Lux's Avatar
        Alpina_B3_Lux -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
        ^ Oh noes, you've criticized Sticky's holy grail, the M3 GTS. How dare you?!
        If there was ever a car with a worse value for money I haven't seen it yet. Not that it's bad as such, but the improvement over a standard M3 is marginal at best and it still costs double the price - for which you could buy cars that are much, much faster.

        Had they offered it like the CSL or a Black Series for a reasonable upgrade price, it would have been a nice idea. But like this...they're really asking their customers to bend over basically. Same with the CRT - slam a few carbon fiber pieces on the car (which doesn't make any difference in relation to the car's basic weight) and sell it for an outrageous price, limit the edition and pretend it's something special.

        Oh but wait, right, its engine has the magic letter "S" in it, so it's gotta be special and you can ask any price for it. Sorry, forgot that!

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
        This thread sure delivers! Click here to enlarge

        Now someone get Sticky to drive a 1M. Tie him in there if necessary Click here to enlarge Maybe that will change his opinion...
        Wouldn't matter I think. He's like a 90 year old granpa, no possibility to change his mind, everything was better before the war.

        Alpina_B3_Lux
      1. Mike@VAC's Avatar
        Mike@VAC -
        BTW the 1M is amazing. Never heard anyone not LOVE it after driving it (and most of our clients drive on track)
      1. M3_WC's Avatar
        M3_WC -
        So we will never see a NA 6-cylinder 2-door BMW M car again? Because of emissions?

        Why can other manufacturers produce NA sports cars?

        They all don't have to have 500+hp to be fun track cars.
      1. M3_WC's Avatar
        M3_WC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux Click here to enlarge
        Sure they do the racing. Just as with other companies. That doesn't mean that any parts are used in street cars or that the race cars are even based on street cars.

        I agree that it should be that way, Audi and Porsche or Ferrari certainly do it. BMW does not have a real sports car in their portfolio any more, which is why they need to conceive some cars as the Z4 that look somewhat like street cars but have almost nothing in common with them.
        There are plenty of series that run nearly stock configured cars. BMW going all forced induction is going to leave teams like Bimmerworld, Fall-Line, Turner, etc...behind the eight ball.

        It is going to be real interesting to see what teams can do with what BMW is putting in the showrooms in the future.
      1. inlineS54B32's Avatar
        inlineS54B32 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux Click here to enlarge
        If there was ever a car with a worse value for money I haven't seen it yet. Not that it's bad as such, but the improvement over a standard M3 is marginal at best and it still costs double the price - for which you could buy cars that are much, much faster.

        Had they offered it like the CSL or a Black Series for a reasonable upgrade price, it would have been a nice idea. But like this...they're really asking their customers to bend over basically. Same with the CRT - slam a few carbon fiber pieces on the car (which doesn't make any difference in relation to the car's basic weight) and sell it for an outrageous price, limit the edition and pretend it's something special.

        Oh but wait, right, its engine has the magic letter "S" in it, so it's gotta be special and you can ask any price for it. Sorry, forgot that!

        Wouldn't matter I think. He's like a 90 year old granpa, no possibility to change his mind, everything was better before the war.

        Alpina_B3_Lux
        Wait a sec, you said previously that the 1M was priced well... Regardless of this, how in the heck does a Black Series or a CSL have a "reasonable upgrade price" (Black Series being 44 THOUSAND dollars more than a standard C63, and the e46 M3 CSL being 85 THOUSAND EUROS, we can count that one out too as being reasonable)...

        Now we say the CRT is just a car with a few carbon fiber pieces slammed on the car (and doesn't make difference to the weight vs. stock)... Let me explain something. The CRT is amazing. It has the 4.4 liter engine from the GTS (reason enough to dismiss your theory on anything cars), and a BUNCH of other things that do not come on the standard M3 (titanium exhaust, much better brakes, independent rear seats, etc.) - but yeah, just a few carbon pieces for an outrageous price.

        Now, just to top all this off, you claim and imply that the 1M was supposed to be competition to the M3 by saying: "but the improvement over a standard M3 is marginal at best and it still costs double the price - for which you could buy cars that are much, much faster" ... You understand that these cars are not to be compared nor were intended to be compared - right? The price is not DOUBLE the price of an M3 - and it is NOT an improvement or otherwise against the M3. One has a 420 HP 8 cylinder, the other has a 340 HP N54. One is a 1 series, the other is a 3 series. They are totally different.

        Then you claim that the 1M has an S engine... Why do you argue with people when you just make up information? Again, this is just like the torque arguments. You understand that this statement alone is WHY you aren't "understanding" the issue with the whole thing. You don't just throw some production engine into a car, and call it an M series. THAT is what the issue is. Whereas before, we got bespoke/S engines in our M series, now we are getting "tuned" versions of the engines they (BMW) is using in their "regular" lineup. It's a cheap copout - regardless of how good or not good the N54/55 is. They can stamp an S on the damn thing, but ... Here - watch this, and you'll hopefully get it:

        It's like what BMW is doing - but instead more like "look at me, I'm good, I'll never let ya down, but if I do - too bad, you should have bought a previous version of the car"

        Just to clarify, the base price of a 1M IS LESS than the base price of an M3... You should be comparing the 1M against the 135i - but that would make too much sense.