• What happens when an ESS-Tuning VT3-700 supercharged built S65 motor DCT E92 M3 runs into a stock internal M156 Weistec Stage III supercharged C63? It loses

      This was a race many of you were waiting to see, a "built" motor supercharged DCT M3 versus a Stage III supercharged C63 AMG. The C63 AMG is the new W204 Black Series whose M156 V8 features stronger forged internals than the standard M156 in regular C63 AMG's that do not have the optional P31 performance package. At about 11 psi of boost on a 91 octane tune for the AMG power is in the upper 600 wheel horsepower range and would be higher with a race gas tune.


      The E92 M3 features an ESS Tuning VT3 built motor setup with power in the mid 600 wheel range on race gas. Unfortunately, this is a very weak example of a built motor M3 due to the block not being sleeved. It is simply a stock block with a dropped compression ratio for longevity purposes which prevents "accidents" from happening on the stock internals. It really does not offer much of a power benefit over a stock internal car as the compression ratio drop means more air needs to be compressed to make up for the lost power per psi of boost.

      It uses the exact same Vortech blower as the standard ESS kits which is undersized for a true built motor setup. A properly built low compression M3 with a properly sized blower should not lose to a stock internal M156 on a 91 octane and should not be in the 6XX wheel horsepower range. Regardless, what happened is what happened and the Weistec Stage III setups continue to impress as this C63 beats "the best" ESS has to offer and has been seen simply walking away from some very quick cars. Much respect to Wesitec on their build and checking egos, video below.

      This article was originally published in forum thread: ESS S3 E92 M3 vs Weistec S3 C63 BS started by SleepersOwn View original post
      Comments 85 Comments
      1. Wedge1967's Avatar
        Wedge1967 -
        did Weistec jump? Looked like that got into the throttle way before the cone...
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Wedge1967 Click here to enlarge
        did Weistec jump? Looked like that got into the throttle way before the cone...
        Maybe just the instant torque? Wouldn't have mattered though, it's just faster.
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Maybe just the instant torque? Wouldn't have mattered though, it's just faster.
        Impossible. If ESS loses, its because the ESS car wasnt running all out and/or having issues. but ESS doesnt have any issue's, ever. So the competitor had to be cheating
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Of course had to be cheating. Not like 11 psi from a 3.0 liter blower on an M156 will win against a V3si at 10.0:1.

        The V3si and the 2.3 liter are a better matchup considering the max CFM.
      1. ajm8127's Avatar
        ajm8127 -
        I like how the second and third paragraphs are about how Sticky's car is superior.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ajm8127 Click here to enlarge
        I like how the second and third paragraphs are about how Sticky's car is superior.
        No it's about how this isn't much of a built motor setup.
      1. SleepersOwn's Avatar
        SleepersOwn -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Nah it needed its own thread good job. Also needed to front page it.
        Cool...

        Question, i'm not too familiar with Drew's setup. You said it's just a drop in compression, what method was used ? Forged pistons/rods ? I ask because i'm wondering does the block NEED to be sleeved in order to make big numbers ? I would think it'd suck to spend the money on internals if i'm only making ~100 more whp. Does the S65 need to be sleeved in order to fully utilize a bigger blower and more boost ? Forgive my ignorance, i'm just trying to understand why his setup seems to be inefficent as your second paragraph suggests.
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SleepersOwn Click here to enlarge
        Cool...

        Question, i'm not too familiar with Drew's setup. You said it's just a drop in compression, what method was used ? Forged pistons/rods ? I ask because i'm wondering does the block NEED to be sleeved in order to make big numbers ? I would think it'd suck to spend the money on internals if i'm only making ~100 more whp. Does the S65 need to be sleeved in order to fully utilize a bigger blower and more boost ? Forgive my ignorance, i'm just trying to understand why his setup seems to be inefficent as your second paragraph suggests.
        you sound familiar.. where are you from..?
      1. SleepersOwn's Avatar
        SleepersOwn -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
        you sound familiar.. where are you from..?
        Not sure I understand the question fully ?

        Are you asking where was I born/raised or what car forums do I frequent ?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SleepersOwn Click here to enlarge
        You said it's just a drop in compression, what method was used ? Forged pistons/rods ?
        Yes.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SleepersOwn Click here to enlarge
        I ask because i'm wondering does the block NEED to be sleeved in order to make big numbers ? I would think it'd suck to spend the money on internals if i'm only making ~100 more whp.
        Yes, it needs to be sleeved to make big numbers. Cylinder spacing is tight, material is super lightweight and weak (not iron like the S54), and it will flex/give.

        Yes, it sucks to spend money on the internals to only make a few more horses unless someone else foots the bill...

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SleepersOwn Click here to enlarge
        oes the S65 need to be sleeved in order to fully utilize a bigger blower and more boost ?
        Yes.
      1. SleepersOwn's Avatar
        SleepersOwn -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Yes.



        Yes, it needs to be sleeved to make big numbers. Cylinder spacing is tight, material is super lightweight and weak (not iron like the S54), and it will flex/give.

        Yes, it sucks to spend money on the internals to only make a few more horses unless someone else foots the bill...



        Yes.
        Ah thanks ! Learn something new everyday.
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SleepersOwn Click here to enlarge
        Cool...

        Question, i'm not too familiar with Drew's setup. You said it's just a drop in compression, what method was used ? Forged pistons/rods ? I ask because i'm wondering does the block NEED to be sleeved in order to make big numbers ? I would think it'd suck to spend the money on internals if i'm only making ~100 more whp. Does the S65 need to be sleeved in order to fully utilize a bigger blower and more boost ? Forgive my ignorance, i'm just trying to understand why his setup seems to be inefficent as your second paragraph suggests.
        To make BIG power (650 WHP+) on the S65, you're gonna at least need a sleeved block, forged internals & a bigger blower (Vortech T-Trim at a minimum). If you're looking to make a heavy hitter S65 (700 WHP+), you're gonna need to be mindful of block flex & some additional reinforcement to make sure that doesn't destroy the block.
      1. Wedge1967's Avatar
        Wedge1967 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Maybe just the instant torque? Wouldn't have mattered though, it's just faster.
        haha, yeah right... Blah Blah Blah. He jumped. haha
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Wedge1967 Click here to enlarge
        haha, yeah right... Blah Blah Blah. He jumped. haha
        00:53sec
        he was at the cones first, tq tends to move the car faster. you just never see M3's get that"hit" since they dont make tq
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH -
        Sounds to me like the Benz is a superior platform for modding out of the box. And it's not like the black series premium has anything to do with it. Any stage 3 C63 w the MCT would yield similar results.
      1. SleepersOwn's Avatar
        SleepersOwn -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        To make BIG power (650 WHP+) on the S65, you're gonna at least need a sleeved block, forged internals & a bigger blower (Vortech T-Trim at a minimum). If you're looking to make a heavy hitter S65 (700 WHP+), you're gonna need to be mindful of block flex & some additional reinforcement to make sure that doesn't destroy the block.
        Ah I see. I gather this expense is what's deterring most owners.

        Question, when making that much power ( full build for 700+whp ), at what point does the DCT become a concern ? Or is this still being learned as time progresses ?
      1. Wedge1967's Avatar
        Wedge1967 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
        00:53sec
        he was at the cones first, tq tends to move the car faster. you just never see M3's get that"hit" since they dont make tq
        I agree. I still think WT nailed the throttle a bit early giving himself the advantage with all that torque. Granted the M doesn't have that, but if he rolled out above 5000 rpm and was well in the HP on the cone, I think it wouldn't have been so one sided. Being in the right gear and at the right RPM when you hit the cone makes all the difference in the world, or at least a car length.
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Wedge1967 Click here to enlarge
        I agree. I still think WT nailed the throttle a bit early giving himself the advantage with all that torque. Granted the M doesn't have that, but if he rolled out above 5000 rpm and was well in the HP on the cone, I think it wouldn't have been so one sided. Being in the right gear and at the right RPM when you hit the cone makes all the difference in the world, or at least a car length.
        Click here to enlarge
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SleepersOwn Click here to enlarge
        Ah I see. I gather this expense is what's deterring most owners.

        Question, when making that much power ( full build for 700+whp ), at what point does the DCT become a concern ? Or is this still being learned as time progresses ?
        The DCT is one problem, the other is people are content with their stock motor kits & hitting ~600 WHP (obviously a lot easier to return to stock in case someone decides to sell the car than a built motor). Sticky's car should be the highest HP DCT (Gintani Stage 3 with YSI blower) once it's 100% operational, but as of right now DSLJ5's (Drew) is the highest HP DCT with the ESS-VT3 putting down 670 WHP on the EAS "Super Generous" DynoJet


        Si FTW
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Wedge1967 Click here to enlarge
        haha, yeah right... Blah Blah Blah. He jumped. haha
        It's a faster car, sorry, blah blah blah.