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    • Vargas Stage III Turbo upgrade for 335/135 N54 motor hits 572 wheel horsepower on 91 octane pump gas (no meth injection) with Cobb flash

      Well here are some results for the Vargas Stage III upgrade that has caused the N54 forum section to basically be engaged in chaos for the past few months. From accusations of vaporware, to comparison to single turbo upgrades, to countless other arguments the day has come and the Stage III Vargas Turbo upgrade dyno'd on 91 octane with no meth 572 horsepower to the rear wheels. This is with a Cobb flash tuned by BimmerBoost vendor Pro-Tuning Freaks.


      Impressive? Yep, sure is and this seems to also be a 91 octane pump gas only world record for the N54. Now keep in mind this is just the beginning. What will it do with meth? What will do on E85? What will it do with race gas and big boost? What about different turbos? Sky appears to be the limit but for now this kind of performance on pump gas sure is a big boost (hah, get it?) to the N54 scene.

      Congratulations to all involved, Vargas Turbo Tech, Pro-Tuning Freaks, Cobb, and just the N54 community as well. The impossible just became possible. Pictures, video, and dynograph below.




      This article was originally published in forum thread: 572WHP 537WTQ - ACN 91 Octane, no meth - VTT Stage 3 Early Dynos PTF / COBB Protune started by VargasTurboTech View original post
      Comments 575 Comments
      1. JoshBoody's Avatar
        JoshBoody -
        Well max HP, I meant with using meth... have to be very careful with my wording.
      1. dzenno@PTF's Avatar
        dzenno@PTF -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
        Adding duty cycle (my guess at your cheat) isn't much of a cheat really if you ask me. Just a headache if you released it like that because of everyone needing to be dialed in by hand for their conditions, and not so adaptable. JB+ would be less of a headache if Cobb doesn't release the maps by then, but for now it's not really a cheat imo, just a method of boost control. There are many methods of boost control.

        I personally like the integrated approach. Who doesn't? I mean seriously it's usually the best way to handle things assuming whatever computer you're working with is sufficiently hacked.

        I still think piggybacks are great for things that haven't been hacked into the DME yet, like flex fueling. Although a "true" set tune would of course be better for E85 even, the flexibility of the piggybacks are nice. It's like being spoiled with extra features you only wish the DME had.

        Lastly, who tunes for "max hp" anyway? When you are building or tuning any project, you don't typically go for "max hp" unless you are a building a funnycar (read- don't mind rebuilding every single pass). What you do instead is target specific goals. 500hp with X spool, 800hp, etc. Reliability has to be taken into account. If you build blindly, you're gonna have a bad time. Trust me, I've done it because it's tempting.

        Hey look I'm over 100 rep finally.
        We're doing it through MAP sensor scaling, basically like the JB+ except no external device required, and a couple other tables to give us 2-3psi more than we can do without the cheat. WGDC tables are just being used as usual, to make required boost/spool happen.

        In terms of piggy's added features, definitely, where required absolutely use them. What I'm against is pushing off DME provided features in favour of a stacked setup just because it may be "easier" to configure for some things. Features like in-dash gauges are really nice. For meth safety we'll be experimenting with calibration of the flow sensor signal and an existing "DME mappable" sensor like the IAT sensor. Same could be done with a flex fuel setup wired direct to the DME and another/same DME mappable table. Best/cleanest/most elegant would be to have independent tables for this obviously and maybe that happens one day too, not any time soon.

        Fully agree on the max hp comment.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
        Hey DZ... hey man. guess what. I just referred someone to PTF.
        Should I be worried? Is their motor about to blow? Click here to enlarge
      1. dzenno@PTF's Avatar
        dzenno@PTF -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
        Well max HP, I meant with using meth... have to be very careful with my wording.
        In that case let me make it clear that I'd NEVER supplement with meth for fuel with as large volumes that'd be required in the way its being typically done today, especially if going after some crazy high HP levels. I've already had some convos with some guys over PMs on it. Heavy meth fueling down the charge pipes will not be happening from this camp. If we ever end up supporting something like that it'll have to be something like direct port with a spacer between the head and the intake manifold with the new Aquamist checkvalved nozzle injectors in each runner. Even that makes me uncomfortable and I'd most likely just rather try running PI fuel injectors in tandem with DI. Again, if push came to shove. First though, we'll do our best to work out the HPFP limitation if at all possible and find a way to fuel the car the way it came from the factory, preserving DI.
      1. Terry@BMS's Avatar
        Terry@BMS -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
        Stacked setups don’t target 220, cause few are running that much boost. I know how I tune a stacked setup and the possibilities... yes you can set max load. Terry only ran stock load targets with Cobb as a fix for some peeps flatlining. Otherwise you set the flash to the tuning ballpark. Setpoints today won’t transfer to stg3 running 50% more power… but the concept stays the same. This is a pointless discussion... you know how it works, but I guess just like to have the last word.
        I run load at 110 because that is the only way to get the DME to give proper post shift timing consistently with automatics. It's a bit of a headache at times but Cobb added a 3d fuel scaling table awhile ago that made it a lot cleaner. I'd love for them to expose all the timing tables which would allow us to do up the back end flash differently. Some day. But we can't have cars running slower than they should be until then. So we do the best we can with the tools we have and keep our eyes open for areas to improve.

        As I said before if D wants to believe whatever he is doing is the best way more power to him. No reason to bicker over it. Normally these types of scores are settled at the track or runway anyway. Click here to enlarge
      1. dzenno@PTF's Avatar
        dzenno@PTF -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
        As I said before if D wants to believe whatever he is doing is the best way more power to him. No reason to bicker over it. Normally these types of scores are settled at the track or runway anyway. Click here to enlarge
        No reason to talk about the "best" way. That's what Josh keeps bringing up. All I ever said is we're doing the things we're doing as we prefer to do them that way given what we know and have learned through our testing. We don't have an agenda to make money off Cobb APs Click here to enlarge If ProEFI for instance, or whoever, ends up doing things better than Cobb one day on this platform we'll gladly adopt the next best developed tuning platform/approach providing feedback to those interested on the why/what/how...

        Now, if we were building the hardware and profiting off of it, that'd naturally put us in a very different position wouldn't it...we're a tuning shop and we jump on the best available software for the job, bluntly honest and simple to explain

        In terms of racing, now you're talking my language! Click here to enlarge Go with a 67R or you'll be sorry haha i don't want to hear an excuse in your signature saying fastest "60R" setup or something weak like that hah
      1. Terry@BMS's Avatar
        Terry@BMS -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
        In that case let me make it clear that I'd NEVER supplement with meth for fuel with as large volumes that'd be required in the way its being typically done today, especially if going after some crazy high HP levels. I've already had some convos with some guys over PMs on it. Heavy meth fueling down the charge pipes will not be happening from this camp. If we ever end up supporting something like that it'll have to be something like direct port with a spacer between the head and the intake manifold with the new Aquamist checkvalved nozzle injectors in each runner. Even that makes me uncomfortable and I'd most likely just rather try running PI fuel injectors in tandem with DI. Again, if push came to shove. First though, we'll do our best to work out the HPFP limitation if at all possible and find a way to fuel the car the way it came from the factory, preserving DI.
        The only concern I've ever had with meth fueling is distribution and if you spray enough meth it's not much of an issue. Sure it would be preferred to have a higher capacity high pressure pump and boosting low pressure to some crazy level like 140psi (with new lines, etc) may allow that. But Shiv has nicely demonstrated that meth can work for fueling. Beats going slow. Click here to enlarge
      1. Terry@BMS's Avatar
        Terry@BMS -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
        In terms of racing, now you're talking my language! Click here to enlarge Go with a 67R or you'll be sorry haha i don't want to hear an excuse in your signature saying fastest "60R" setup or something weak like that hah
        lol I'm not going to pull a 'BuraQ'.
      1. dzenno@PTF's Avatar
        dzenno@PTF -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
        The only concern I've ever had with meth fueling is distribution and if you spray enough meth it's not much of an issue. Sure it would be preferred to have a higher capacity high pressure pump and boosting low pressure to some crazy level like 140psi (with new lines, etc) may allow that. But Shiv has nicely demonstrated that meth can work for fueling. Beats going slow. Click here to enlarge
        Where is Shiv? What happened to 700whp? I really think 720ish things will start to go..it'd be really low of him not to report it if he did blow up
      1. Terry@BMS's Avatar
        Terry@BMS -
        Honestly no idea. With the exception of chiming in to trash Tony He's been MIA from the scene for months. It's a lot less fun without him around constantly stirring the forums up. Someone on e90 eluded to him finding some non-BMW related work so maybe he's busy with other work. Or has sold enough single turbo kits to retire. Shrug.
      1. Tony@VargasTurboTech's Avatar
        Tony@VargasTurboTech -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
        Where is Shiv? What happened to 700whp? I really think 720ish things will start to go..it'd be really low of him not to report it if he did blow up
        We both know he blew at least one up. Maybe it wasn't due to too high of numbers thats why he isn't saying anything. A dyno video of a 700 HP graph and an engine grenade would be good for business in my opinion.
      1. V8Bait's Avatar
        V8Bait -
        Your big secret that I finally fished out of you on the boost control cheat is map scaling? Jeez, you're like ocd with tuning haha. And I say that with love... map scaling I kinda dismissed as not even cheating for the couple of percent you would be scaling for. It's a practice that's so well documented I'd hardly call it a cheat, since its not like the map sensor isn't properly reading.
      1. dzenno@PTF's Avatar
        dzenno@PTF -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
        Your big secret that I finally fished out of you on the boost control cheat is map scaling? Jeez, you're like ocd with tuning haha. And I say that with love... map scaling I kinda dismissed as not even cheating for the couple of percent you would be scaling for. It's a practice that's so well documented I'd hardly call it a cheat, since its not like the map sensor isn't properly reading.
        Hate it LOL no secret though, think i mentioned it back in that other crazy thread LOL
      1. dzenno@PTF's Avatar
        dzenno@PTF -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
        We both know he blew at least one up. Maybe it wasn't due to too high of numbers thats why he isn't saying anything. A dyno video of a 700 HP graph and an engine grenade would be good for business in my opinion.
        Honestly no idea but it is odd there's no more updates from there, been a while...Maybe they had a psychic tell them to build the motor before it was too late Click here to enlarge
      1. JoshBoody's Avatar
        JoshBoody -
        Speaking of fueling, Tony should try the stock/Walbro in series… potentially 72psi at X volume is too much for the parallel setup. This is an easy test.
      1. Terry@BMS's Avatar
        Terry@BMS -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
        Speaking of fueling, Tony should try the stock/Walbro in series… potentially 72psi at X volume is too much for the parallel setup. This is an easy test.
        He needs a lot more than 72psi. I'd start at 100psi with a good regulator. Maybe something set at 80psi base with a 1:1.
      1. JoshBoody's Avatar
        JoshBoody -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
        He needs a lot more than 72psi. I'd start at 100psi with a good regulator. Maybe something set at 80psi base with a 1:1.
        Terry, you are hung up on pressure but it doesn't matter. Pump is regulated to a certain pressure... this isn't the same as raising pressure to increase flow per a set restriction. V8bait, you an engineer... what you say?
      1. Terry@BMS's Avatar
        Terry@BMS -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
        Terry, you are hung up on pressure but it doesn't matter. Pump is regulated to a certain pressure... this isn't the same as raising pressure to increase flow per a set restriction. V8bait, you an engineer... what you say?
        We need a higher low pressure to squeeze more fuel through the relatively small high pressure pump inlet so it can supply a higher volume on the output. Click here to enlarge
      1. dzenno@PTF's Avatar
        dzenno@PTF -
        I'd address the regulator next imho
      1. V8Bait's Avatar
        V8Bait -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
        Terry, you are hung up on pressure but it doesn't matter. Pump is regulated to a certain pressure... this isn't the same as raising pressure to increase flow per a set restriction. V8bait, you an engineer... what you say?
        I say I'm hungry. Oh, fuel pressure? Well, firstly I'm a chemical and biological engineer but also good with computer science and took a few ME classes when I was undecided. I was in your boat about pressure not mattering for a positive displacement pump like the hpfp, but apparently bmw put some restrictions in and stuff. What matters is filling the inlet to the pump. Vargus lpfp setup kinda changed my opinion on the matter, so now I try to just watch. Lol
      1. V8Bait's Avatar
        V8Bait -
        What I do know about hpfp systems is that assuming you fill the pump, output is dependent on bore size and rpm. But this system isn't as easy as the diesel pumps I saw when I was still working in a shop. Terry posted a diagram once, and at that point I kinda gave up theorizing as asides from just testing random variables I couldn't figure much out there.

        What I do know is that flow has not become restricted by the lines yet, even when overwhelming the factory regulator. But, an overwhelmed regulator sounds like something to upgrade.