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    • Vargas Stage III Turbo upgrade for 335/135 N54 motor hits 572 wheel horsepower on 91 octane pump gas (no meth injection) with Cobb flash

      Well here are some results for the Vargas Stage III upgrade that has caused the N54 forum section to basically be engaged in chaos for the past few months. From accusations of vaporware, to comparison to single turbo upgrades, to countless other arguments the day has come and the Stage III Vargas Turbo upgrade dyno'd on 91 octane with no meth 572 horsepower to the rear wheels. This is with a Cobb flash tuned by BimmerBoost vendor Pro-Tuning Freaks.


      Impressive? Yep, sure is and this seems to also be a 91 octane pump gas only world record for the N54. Now keep in mind this is just the beginning. What will it do with meth? What will do on E85? What will it do with race gas and big boost? What about different turbos? Sky appears to be the limit but for now this kind of performance on pump gas sure is a big boost (hah, get it?) to the N54 scene.

      Congratulations to all involved, Vargas Turbo Tech, Pro-Tuning Freaks, Cobb, and just the N54 community as well. The impossible just became possible. Pictures, video, and dynograph below.



      This article was originally published in forum thread: 572WHP 537WTQ - ACN 91 Octane, no meth - VTT Stage 3 Early Dynos PTF / COBB Protune started by VargasTurboTech View original post
      Comments 575 Comments
      1. Sikh335's Avatar
        Sikh335 -
        Animal I hope you have money saved up for a Trans Upgrade. You will need it with Stage 3 or any kit with Power over 600whp, the Alpina Flash will only get you so far. My Trans is on a truck headed from NJ to CA, should be exactly what the 6AT needs.
      1. Jake@PTF's Avatar
        Jake@PTF -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sikh335 Click here to enlarge
        Animal I hope you have money saved up for a Trans Upgrade. You will need it with Stage 3 or any kit with Power over 600whp, the Alpina Flash will only get you so far. My Trans is on a truck headed from NJ to CA, should be exactly what the 6AT needs.
        You are also running a piggyback that doesnt report actual load and tq targets to the DME which affects the control of the transmission as the trans will only expect to see a certain amount of power/tq and you are seeing far more. Whether or not other people will say that isn't an issue - plain and simple it is. While running a flash tune so that the DME sees EVERYTHING (and using a flash and piggyback does not allow this) the transmission will simply not react as well. I can not say at all how an auto will hold up with even just a flash because we haven't had experience with an Auto pushing 600 yet. I can however say that if it is strong enough to hold - a flash tune ONLY will be able to do a better job because the DME and TCU will know how much power to expect.

        The way I explain the situation is as follows. If you have a tug of war contest and you are going 1v1 and you see a 500lb guy on teh other end of the rope you are going to grip alot tighter and prepare to hold more than if the competitor on the other end was an 8 year old girl. When using a piggy back and flash (stacked) the car is being told its happy at lower load/tq targets than it is actually seeing. Therefor the car thinks its an 8 year old girl on the other end of the rope when its actually a 500lb man and well - your losing that fight.

        If you think about it - we are making great power on 91 octane with the Cobb AP and PTF Tune running on Tony Vargas' twin turbo kit. Boost control is on point, the car is smooth, powerful and consistant, and we aren't using a piggyback to control a thing. If you take a piggyback and try to do the same thing without the use of a flash it simply won't work. The piggyback needs the flash for proper fueling and other tuning areas to control the car reliably/safely and then allow the piggyback to do a few things on top. Why use a piggyback and a flash when its proven the flash can do it alone (whereas the piggyback requires the flash in addition...seems like an easy answer to me).

        Now there are the bells and whistles that always get discussed like meth integration and gauges on your dash etc. The aquamist HFS-4 is a great setup and has a GREAT failsafe. I simply use my AP as my gauge (but I also have some others). You can monitor all data through your AP since no signals are modified or recreated by a piggyback. In no way am I saying any one elses tuning solutions don't work. They clearly work. I just take the most elegant, functional, and efficient solution and support it. And well I could go on but this is an old debated topic and not the point of the thread. GOING FAST IS Click here to enlarge Got off on a tangent and had a lot more to say on it but i'll keep that private if you ever want to discuss it sometime.
      1. ajm8127's Avatar
        ajm8127 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jhershorin Click here to enlarge
        You are also running a piggyback that doesnt report actual load and tq targets to the DME which affects the control of the transmission as the trans will only expect to see a certain amount of power/tq and you are seeing far more.
        Right on. This is a great observation.
      1. Sikh335's Avatar
        Sikh335 -
        Jake I'm not quite sure where I started debating Piggy VS Flash. I would rather leave that debate for you and the piggy tuners. I'm stating from experience that the automatic transmission mechanically can not reliably handle 600whp plus and will need to be rebuilt. The theory provided above is great if both ends of the string are able to handle the load that they can see coming.

        Many of the forums members were telling Vishnu the same thing we now know that the Trans won't hold and now we have data to show It mechanically is not built for it. This is not a software fix its hardware and not a debate over tuning methodology.
      1. VargasTurboTech's Avatar
        VargasTurboTech -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sikh335 Click here to enlarge
        Jake I'm not quite sure where I started debating Piggy VS Flash. I would rather leave that debate for you and the piggy tuners. I'm stating from experience that the automatic transmission mechanically can not reliably handle 600whp plus and will need to be rebuilt. The theory provided above is great if both ends of the string are able to handle the load that they can see coming.

        Many of the forums members were telling Vishnu the same thing we now know that the Trans won't hold and now we have data to show It mechanically is not built for it. This is not a software fix its hardware and not a debate over tuning methodology.
        This is the last time I will be saying this. You are not welcome to post in any thread I start. If you have a problem with this, we can work it out at shift sector. Thanks
      1. Black Sheep's Avatar
        Black Sheep -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
        This is the last time I will be saying this. You are not welcome to post in any thread I start. If you have a problem with this, we can work it out at shift sector. Thanks
        I think there is a way you can block people out from a thread when you set up a new thread.
      1. ATP's Avatar
        ATP -
        @Sticky can certainly ban Sikh from this thread.
      1. Black Sheep's Avatar
        Black Sheep -
        I'd have to bet that he is one of the 2 people that are not aloud to purchase Stage 3's
      1. VargasTurboTech's Avatar
        VargasTurboTech -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Black Sheep Click here to enlarge
        I'd have to bet that he is one of the 2 people that are not aloud to purchase Stage 3's
        There is, I am just letting him know up front if I forget, that he is not welcome at any point.
      1. Sikh335's Avatar
        Sikh335 -
        All this talk about Shift Sector. You have stated publicly that your test car is not going to be ready for Shift Sector. But hey your more than welcome to spectate!!!!!

        as for the thread I have not posted anything negative the information provided all of your 6AT customers should be looking at and prepping their Trans for.
      1. VargasTurboTech's Avatar
        VargasTurboTech -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sikh335 Click here to enlarge
        All this talk about Shift Sector. You have stated publicly that your test car is not going to be ready for Shift Sector. But hey your more than welcome to spectate!!!!!

        as for the thread I have not posted anything negative the information provided all of your 6AT customers should be looking at and prepping their Trans for.
        I do not care what kind of information you have posted, you are not welcome to post in any thread I have started, and the car not being ready doesn't mean I will not be there. I said it politely and I am saying it one last time. You are not welcome to post in any thread I start, if you have a problem with this and continue to do so. We will address it at shift sector. I would not be so foolish as to think I do not mean this, just a warning. That is all.
      1. JoshBoody's Avatar
        JoshBoody -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jhershorin Click here to enlarge
        You are also running a piggyback that doesnt report actual load and tq targets to the DME which affects the control of the transmission as the trans will only expect to see a certain amount of power/tq and you are seeing far more. Whether or not other people will say that isn't an issue - plain and simple it is. While running a flash tune so that the DME sees EVERYTHING (and using a flash and piggyback does not allow this) the transmission will simply not react as well. I can not say at all how an auto will hold up with even just a flash because we haven't had experience with an Auto pushing 600 yet. I can however say that if it is strong enough to hold - a flash tune ONLY will be able to do a better job because the DME and TCU will know how much power to expect.

        The way I explain the situation is as follows. If you have a tug of war contest and you are going 1v1 and you see a 500lb guy on teh other end of the rope you are going to grip alot tighter and prepare to hold more than if the competitor on the other end was an 8 year old girl. When using a piggy back and flash (stacked) the car is being told its happy at lower load/tq targets than it is actually seeing. Therefor the car thinks its an 8 year old girl on the other end of the rope when its actually a 500lb man and well - your losing that fight.

        If you think about it - we are making great power on 91 octane with the Cobb AP and PTF Tune running on Tony Vargas' twin turbo kit. Boost control is on point, the car is smooth, powerful and consistant, and we aren't using a piggyback to control a thing. If you take a piggyback and try to do the same thing without the use of a flash it simply won't work. The piggyback needs the flash for proper fueling and other tuning areas to control the car reliably/safely and then allow the piggyback to do a few things on top. Why use a piggyback and a flash when its proven the flash can do it alone (whereas the piggyback requires the flash in addition...seems like an easy answer to me).

        Now there are the bells and whistles that always get discussed like meth integration and gauges on your dash etc. The aquamist HFS-4 is a great setup and has a GREAT failsafe. I simply use my AP as my gauge (but I also have some others). You can monitor all data through your AP since no signals are modified or recreated by a piggyback. In no way am I saying any one elses tuning solutions don't work. They clearly work. I just take the most elegant, functional, and efficient solution and support it. And well I could go on but this is an old debated topic and not the point of the thread. GOING FAST IS Got off on a tangent and had a lot more to say on it but i'll keep that private if you ever want to discuss it sometime.
        Nicely worded from Jay… as always… but not so accurate. Your current tuning is 25ish psi, but DME sees 21… similar to stacked setup in DME torque. We can change the torque calculated by the DME through ATR, as Terry figured out. The point of stacking (I don’t think anyone plans to use piggy alone) is to put you in the ballpark of the tuning goals, but have the piggy directly control certain parameters like boost and meth. Your approach to meth I don’t find very “elegant” when the failsafe prevents any boost. Will be interesting seeing what happens with your meth approach… it will take some time to realize if there are any issues. I don’t see any with E85 in the mix, but 91oct/meth, may cause any weaknesses to surface. There are 2 issues that could present a problem: failsafe and tune aggression per meth flow. DME is pretty good at reacting so far though.

        Yes going fast is the goal and the only reason I make these comments is because I don’t want to see any issues arise that stall progress. I am now deciding whether to sell my n54 for e36 track car or up the HP with hybrids, single, or stg3. Once the other stg3 sets sell I’m sure there will be various approaches in tuning, but this will take some time. I want to see the best setup utilized now, but seems this won’t happen. Still very interested…
      1. AltecBX's Avatar
        AltecBX -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sikh335 Click here to enlarge
        Animal I hope you have money saved up for a Trans Upgrade. You will need it with Stage 3 or any kit with Power over 600whp, the Alpina Flash will only get you so far. My Trans is on a truck headed from NJ to CA, should be exactly what the 6AT needs.
        What tune are yo running?
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sikh335 Click here to enlarge
        Jake I'm not quite sure where I started debating Piggy VS Flash.
        ^^^Clearly doesn't understand (or just didn't read) what Jake wrote. Even if you upgrade your trans, because you've chosen to use a piggy as your tune of choice, it'll be a matter of time until it's beaten to $#@! & needs to be repaired again. At least with an upgrade, the flash software will yield a favorable setup between the physical components of the trans & the power you're producing (thus avoiding unnecessary damage on the trans since it's expecting the significantly increased power levels you're producing).

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
        This is the last time I will be saying this. You are not welcome to post in any thread I start. If you have a problem with this, we can work it out at shift sector. Thanks
        Just ban him from the thread, otherwise he'll keep popping in here & spreading his bull$#@!

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by AltecBX Click here to enlarge
        What tune are yo running?
        He's running the PROcede
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
        This is the last time I will be saying this. You are not welcome to post in any thread I start. If you have a problem with this, we can work it out at shift sector. Thanks
        Awe $#@!! I wanna hear the backstory
      1. trufus's Avatar
        trufus -
        Prepared to be negged here...

        Everyone is quick to jump down sikh's throat, but we haven't seen any data to back up Jake's claims that a flash is better for an AT. Unless I'm missing something? I find it a little hard to believe that more than doubling the stock torque is no problem for the hardware as long as the software is "aware" that the DME is requesting more torque. If this is true then that's great news for the AT crowd.

        Anyone got data?

        (sorry for continuing the OT discussion)
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        As far as the trans goes, only so much you can do through software.. after seeing how quickly mine went from no known issues to toast, the limit is going to be in the 500-550 range, even w/o dragstrip launches.
      1. ajm8127's Avatar
        ajm8127 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by trufus Click here to enlarge
        Prepared to be negged here...

        Everyone is quick to jump down sikh's throat, but we haven't seen any data to back up Jake's claims that a flash is better for an AT. Unless I'm missing something? I find it a little hard to believe that more than doubling the stock torque is no problem for the hardware as long as the software is "aware" that the DME is requesting more torque. If this is true then that's great news for the AT crowd.

        Anyone got data?

        (sorry for continuing the OT discussion)
        The transmission computer uses the load seen by the DME to calculate how hard the shifts need to be. This is in the 6HP21 documentation.

        I think Jake is saying that if the DME is seeing an artificially lowered load value from a piggyback, it will not be able to tell the TCU that the load is as high as it is and to increase the firmness of the shifts.

        I don't think anyone is saying the transmission will just be fine with double the stock torque. What Jake is saying is the transmission stands a much better chance at coping with the increased torque if it knows the torque is increased. This is especially true if the transmission has the Alpina flash update because that specific update is designed to deal with increased torque over the stock level.

        Also please keep in mind that torque is what a transmission is rated in, not power. It is the torque that is important. 600 HP at 7000 rpm is not the same torque as 600 HP at 4500 rpm (450 vs. 700 ft. lbs. respectively)
      1. Terry@BMS's Avatar
        Terry@BMS -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jhershorin Click here to enlarge
        You are also running a piggyback that doesnt report actual load and tq targets to the DME which affects the control of the transmission as the trans will only expect to see a certain amount of power/tq and you are seeing far more.
        With a piggyback and flash combo you can tell the trans it's making whatever torque you want it to think its making. Even double the actual torque... Click here to enlarge
      1. Terry@BMS's Avatar
        Terry@BMS -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
        Nicely worded from Jay… as always… but not so accurate. Your current tuning is 25ish psi, but DME sees 21… similar to stacked setup in DME torque. We can change the torque calculated by the DME through ATR, as Terry figured out.
        Actually I just took your idea and ran with it on that. Click here to enlarge