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    • Stock 2012 F13 BMW M6 versus stock 2012 Nissan GT-R from a roll - M6 puts bus-lengths on the GTR? BS result?

      This video makes one scratch their head a bit and is causing some rage on the GT-R forums. Not because the idea of the M6 winning a roll on sprint versus the 2012 GTR is not possible but in the way it happens in this video. The M6 literally just runs away from the GT-R from a 2nd gear roll. Now, the M6 does put down more power than the GT-R stock for stock, roughly 70 more wheel horsepower. It is heavier however with a curb weight of 4088 pounds versus the GTR's 3859 pound curb weight.


      Car and Driver tested the 2012 GTR and got an 11.2@126 out of it in the 1/4 mile. No F13 M6 has come remotely close to this trap speed. However, the all wheel drive launch of the GTR helps big time in a 1/4 mile sprint. Also, MotorTrend's numbers for the 2012 GTR differed considerably with an 11.2@122.7 which seems more much inline with the 2012 GTR's dyno numbers. Was the Car and driver car a ringer? Nissan has supplied ringers before and the 122 trap sure seems much more realistic. Owners have hit 124 mile per hour trap speeds themselves with stock 2012's so the truth is likely somewhere in the middle:


      The convertible F12 M6 has been tested in the 1/4 mile by Insideline and they hit a 118 mile per hour trap speed in the much heavier cab which weighs in at 4,398 pounds. So is the coupe which weighs roughly 300 pounds less capable of 122-123 mile per hour trap speeds? Yes, certainly with proper rubber.

      Check out Insideline's 2012 GTR dyno numbers:


      Now take a look at the F13 M6 dyno numbers:


      Based on power on paper a top end roll should favor the M6. The weight disparity between the two cars is not all that large and all wheel drive does offer greater drive train losses so a roll on will favor the rear wheel drive setup. Both cars have dual clutch transmissions. Gearing on the top end seems to favor the M6 as well.

      Can an F13 M6 beat a 2012 GTR from a roll? It's feasible, but it certainly would be close with a longer race necessary to favor the M6. It would not be the epic beatdown we see in the video below. The GTR owner states there was more than one run yet they were not put up. That leads BimmerBoost to believe the other runs certainly do not look like this one.

      This certainly is controversial and BimmerBoost's money is on a "real" race between the two cars in stock form actually being close assuming no driver error which is likely what happened to the GTR here. Either the wrong gear or wrong mode but either way this is a misleading result based on the available data for both cars:


      This article was originally published in forum thread: F13 M6 versus 2012 Nissan GT-R R35 started by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks View original post
      Comments 115 Comments
      1. fast4door's Avatar
        fast4door -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Because only one part of the statement is correct.
        please, do tell..is my example not valid? 335i vs 335xi..same hp, same torque..but the xi has better traps and times? why..because it can reach a higher speed due to added traction from AWD..
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fast4door Click here to enlarge
        please, do tell..is my example not valid? 335i vs 335xi..same hp, same torque..but the xi has better traps and times? why..because it can reach a higher speed due to added traction from AWD..
        Are the 60 foots equal?
      1. fast4door's Avatar
        fast4door -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Are the 60 foots equal?
        honestly I dont know, I havent dug that deep into it but I would assume they arent..my point is, comparing traps and 1/4 times for an AWD car vs a RWD car is irrelevant in a roll race..maybe im missing something here..

        of course the AWD car is going to have better times and speeds than the RWD car..maybe im not explaing myself clearly enough..
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fast4door Click here to enlarge
        honestly I dont know, I havent dug that deep into it but I would assume they arent..my point is, comparing traps and 1/4 times for an AWD car vs a RWD car is irrelevant in a roll race..maybe im missing something here.
        It's not irrelevant at all it's the most important piece of data aside from the dyno numbers. The reason you see certain all wheel drive cars trap higher than rear wheel drive on street tires is due to the 60 foot. With proper rubber, a rear wheel drive car usually traps higher assuming equal horsepower.
      1. fast4door's Avatar
        fast4door -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        It's not irrelevant at all it's the most important piece of data aside from the dyno numbers. The reason you see certain all wheel drive cars trap higher than rear wheel drive on street tires is due to the 60 foot. With proper rubber, a rear wheel drive car usually traps higher assuming equal horsepower.
        but what happens when the AWD car has proper rubber? lol..I guess were going back and forth. Like I said the 335xi traps higher than the the 335i, but from a roll..the xi isnt always the clear winner.

        I could be completly wrong, and it wouldnt be the first time..but if you take away the advantage of awd and race from a roll..I think its definetly possible for a M6 to take a GTR. I just dont see how comparing results from dig races applies to a roll race when one car is AWD and the other is not
      1. RnmEvo9's Avatar
        RnmEvo9 -
        A stock 335xi will NOT trap higher than a stock 335i. The ET will most definitely be better on the xi thanks to its launch, but its weight and drivetrain loss affects its speed potential at the end of the 1/4 mile.

        As for the M6 walking away from the GTR, well, anything can happen on the road. Good win for the M6.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fast4door Click here to enlarge
        but what happens when the AWD car has proper rubber? lol..
        Nothing changes since it wasn't traction limited in the first place.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fast4door Click here to enlarge
        Like I said the 335xi traps higher than the the 335i, but from a roll..the xi isnt always the clear winner.
        The highest traping 335's are not xi's.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fast4door Click here to enlarge
        I could be completly wrong, and it wouldnt be the first time..but if you take away the advantage of awd and race from a roll..I think its definetly possible for a M6 to take a GTR.
        That's exactly what I wrote in the article. I also pointed out the trap speeds between the cars providing the M6 has race rubber and used launch control would be fairly close.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fast4door Click here to enlarge
        I just dont see how comparing results from dig races applies to a roll race when one car is AWD and the other is not
        Because trap speed is ultimately a measure of horsepower.
      1. 5soko's Avatar
        5soko -
        Thanks for clearing it up Sticky. Didn't have the time lol
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fast4door Click here to enlarge
        please, do tell..is my example not valid? 335i vs 335xi..same hp, same torque..but the xi has better traps and times? why..because it can reach a higher speed due to added traction from AWD..
        may have better ET, but not trap speed. the 1/4 mph is always in effect for a roll, the back 1/2 of the 1/4 is topend acceleration, and equal to a roll.. how fast the roll goes is when you consider gearing and weight. very very rarely will a slower 1/4 mph car outrun a faster 1/4 mph car on a a roll. it would need to be very very close already for that to happen
      1. MSIZZLE's Avatar
        MSIZZLE -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        The GTR was NOT using Launch Control, which are the performance figures you're all using as supporting information. I'm sure if the GTR & M6 both used LC, the GTR would've pulled away because we all know the GTR's DCT can bang out Veyron-like acceleration numbers.
        LC has nothing to do with the the trap speed, nor does the et, a car can roll through the beams start the clock and hit the brakes, then hit the gas and get its normal trap speed but a 30sec 1/4 mile time!
      1. MSIZZLE's Avatar
        MSIZZLE -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fast4door Click here to enlarge
        I think people are making out the GTR to be more than it is..for sure its a fast car, but stock, its not unbeatable..now once you start modding those monsters, its a whole other ball game..
        really!?!?! 0-6 in 2.8 sec and multiple sub 11 sec 1/4 bone stock cars and runs consistent all night!! Plus it's the 4th fastest production car on the planet around the ring, so how is that not pretty much all that?? i mean stock from a dig on the street a tts and an aventador is on a short list of cars that beat it, from a roll maybe a couple of more cars if shifted properly. god forbid if you cap the price at even 200k!!!
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MSIZZLE Click here to enlarge
        really!?!?! 0-6 in 2.8 sec and multiple sub 11 sec 1/4 bone stock cars and runs consistent all night!! Plus it's the 4th fastest production car on the planet around the ring, so how is that not pretty much all that?? i mean stock from a dig on the street a tts and an aventador is on a short list of cars that beat it, from a roll maybe a couple of more cars if shifted properly. god forbid if you cap the price at even 200k!!!
        Nissan cheats.
      1. MSIZZLE's Avatar
        MSIZZLE -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fast4door Click here to enlarge
        not if the car that traps higher is AWD..if you have two cars with same hp, tq, and weight..but one is AWD and the other is not..the AWD will have a better 1/4 time and trap speed..example, 335xi vs 335i..the xi typically traps higher and has a better 1/4 time stock, but from a roll, the xi isnt always the winner..

        now in the case of this video..the M6 makes more torque at lower rpm and has a little more hp than the GTR..when you take away the advantage of AWD in a roll race, it really isnt that hard to believe the M6 can win. Yes, the M6 is a heavy car..but the GTR isnt exactly light either, and once the cars are moving..weight doesnt matter as much..
        awd has 0 to do with trap speed nor does 60ft, some say wheel spin actually increases the trap speed, the 12 & up gtr's will trap 125mph and better, the m6 is 120 and under, you CANT make that up in a clean run. the fastest 12's have trapped 128 while the m6 is only 120. to match that known disparity and then put bus lengths on it like that would represent the m6 was about a 135 car witch it isnt. like i said before this race was over around 130 so using 1/4 traps as a reference is valid.
      1. MSIZZLE's Avatar
        MSIZZLE -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Nissan cheats.
        Sticky i know your not a fan but you cant debate facts and math considering a clean run, you cant make up 5-8mph traps and add 5 car lenths, its just not possible.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MSIZZLE Click here to enlarge
        Sticky i know your not a fan but you cant debate facts and math considering a clean run, you cant make up 5-8mph traps and add 5 car lenths, its just not possible.
        The difference isn't 8 mph between these cars.
      1. MSIZZLE's Avatar
        MSIZZLE -
        the fastest f13 m6 is 120 and the fastest gtr is 128, the average m6 is probably 118 while the average gtr is probably 124
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MSIZZLE Click here to enlarge
        the fastest f13 m6 is 120 and the fastest gtr is 128, the average m6 is probably 118 while the average gtr is probably 124
        I've already gone over the trap speeds. And the M6 puts out a lot more power to the wheels so don't know what to tell you.
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MSIZZLE Click here to enlarge
        LC has nothing to do with the the trap speed, nor does the et, a car can roll through the beams start the clock and hit the brakes, then hit the gas and get its normal trap speed but a 30sec 1/4 mile time!
        I would disagree. Higher rpm means more power sooner, more power sooner is more power over the distance which equals faster
      1. KB's Avatar
        KB -
        The dynos and weights supplied by Sticky give a power to weight ratio of 8.1lbs/hp for the M6 compared to almost 9lbs/hp for the GTR. Its no suprise the M6 is faster especially at a roll.
      1. MSIZZLE's Avatar
        MSIZZLE -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I've already gone over the trap speeds. And the M6 puts out a lot more power to the wheels so don't know what to tell you.
        yea the slowest gtr trap vs the fastest m6 trap