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    • BMW will not respond to AMG and Audi's challenge with an all wheel drive xDrive F10 M5 / F13 M6 - BMW remains "committed" to rear wheel drive

      Hard to take seriously what is coming out of BMW M head Friedrich Nitschke's mouth regarding BMW's commitment to rear wheel drive. Autocar reports Nitchke made the following statement, “Our philosophy in regards to steering feel and precision is that rear-wheel drive is the best solution. xDrive brings an 80-90kg weight penalty and the M differential is the industry’s best rear-drive set-up.” No disagreement from BimmerBoost here.


      The disagreement is that BMW is feeding us their old rhetoric that they don't even believe any longer to avoid a refresh to the M5/M6 in order to compete with the E63 and CLS63 AMG facelift which received an all wheel drive option as well as the new Audi RS7.

      It would be nice if Nitschke believed his own BS but does BimmerBoost need to remind him BMW does sell all wheel drive M "cars" today? Very, very heavy all wheel drive M cars? Need BimmerBoost remind him how absurdly fat the F10 M5 is without all wheel drive? Yes, there was a time when BMW believed rear wheel drive was the best setup and utilized it to keep weight down with perfect 50/50 balance but with the new models even in rear wheel drive form being heavier than some of the competition even with all wheel drive and the new M cars no longer holding true to the 50/50 weight balance philosophy why even hide behind the weight comment?

      The reason really is that BMW does not want to spend the money to add all wheel drive to the M5. Mercedes-Benz and AMG on the other hand give the consumer the choice. Mercedes-Benz and AMG spent the money to develop one beefy looking all wheel drive system for the E63 AMG.

      So how is it that Mercedes-Benz can give the consumer the option of rear wheel or all wheel drive while BMW hides behind weight gain in their cars that clearly are no longer lightest in their class while at the same time already selling all wheel drive M cars? Did someone at BMW forget they offer the M550d with xDrive all wheel drive? Why isn't that car rear wheel drive if the weight is such a big issue?

      Ladies and gentlemen, there was a time where what the head of M is shoveling at us regarding driving pleasure and steering feel thanks to rear wheel drive was true. But with the criticism of the new F10 5-Series steering feel as is and the rising curb weights, this is nothing more than pandering to emotion in an effort to avoid responding to the competition. Good for you AMG, way to meet the challenge rather than run from it.

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      This article was originally published in forum thread: BMW will not respond to AMG and Audi's challenge with an all wheel drive xDrive F10 M5 / F13 M6 - BMW remains "committed" to rear wheel drive started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 62 Comments
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
        I recall several $#@! fights between myself and Bimmer fanboys and their always throwing up DTM championships and crap whenever I bring up AMGs current dominance in the HP wars, overall performance and the marketplace. Please dont make me start cutting and pasting quotes from you and other members.
        Well it's because some of your comments are very one-sided. The DTM championship as far as motorsport prowess is a big deal and BMW has a significant edge there. I mean just look at ALMS for example and how BMW has done.

        AMG currently isn't dominating the HP war as the new F10 M5 makes more power stock than a performance package M157. AMG had to release a quick facelift to compete.

        It is true BMW is no longer overwhelmingly the choice and that Mercedes-AMG have gotten a ton better but BMW was dominant for quite some time. I personally have no issue admitting BMW has fallen off while Mercedes-Benz has gotten stronger. I also already stated I am moving from BMW with my next car.
      1. JRCART's Avatar
        JRCART -
        Bottom line, BMW has not done $#@! since the E46. The E9x is an awesome car , don't get me wrong, only problem is the is a company named MB/AMG competing with them and overshadowing their every move. New M5.....LMAO, Epic fail.

        You only need to take a look at the Lightening Lap results to see where BMW stands in the global performance market and that is behind AMG....and Audi......and ummmmmm Chevy.....and Ford........and LMAO Jaguar
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
        New M5.....LMAO, Epic fail.
        It's heavy but it is putting out the most power and BMW included a dual clutch while Mercedes was not able to even in the facelift. The all wheel drive option is nice though for the facelift.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
        You only need to take a look at the Lightening Lap results to see where BMW stands in the global performance market and that is behind AMG....and Audi......and ummmmmm Chevy.....and Ford........and LMAO Jaguar
        Agreed they have fallen off but also remember the M5/M6 were the cars used. I fully expect a Black Series to run circles around BMW.

        I do not disagree that Mercedes has much better higher performance options. I will be making a switch soon.
      1. JRCART's Avatar
        JRCART -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Well it's because some of your comments are very one-sided. The DTM championship as far as motorsport prowess is a big deal and BMW has a significant edge there. I mean just look at ALMS for example and how BMW has done.

        AMG currently isn't dominating the HP war as the new F10 M5 makes more power stock than a performance package M157. AMG had to release a quick facelift to compete.

        It is true BMW is no longer overwhelmingly the choice and that Mercedes-AMG have gotten a ton better but BMW was dominant for quite some time. I personally have no issue admitting BMW has fallen off while Mercedes-Benz has gotten stronger. I also already stated I am moving from BMW with my next car.
        DTM is Nascar with right turns, cookie cutter spec race cars with different grill badges....thats a fact. A DTM BMW is about as much a BMW as Kyle Bush's Nascar Toyota is a $#@!ing Camry. BMW has not done anything relivent with theirnroad cars in years and they keep taking steps backwards.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
        DTM is Nascar with right turns, cookie cutter spec race cars with different grill badges....thats a fact.
        I don't disagree but BMW still won.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
        BMW has not done anything relivent with theirnroad cars in years and they keep taking steps backwards.
        I don't disagree here either.
      1. JRCART's Avatar
        JRCART -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I don't disagree but BMW still won.



        I don't disagree here either.
        At least we agree on something. Back when you purchased you E92 it was a somewhat competetive car for the segment but in the mean time AMG has continued to up the anti with their Black Series line and cars like the Camaro ZL1 and Mustang Boss 302 and Cobra and Audis RS5 have all out gunned the M cars. I honestly never thought I woukd see the day that a Chevy or Nissan could flat out $#@! slap an M3...remeber Sticky, I used to be a die hard M guy.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
        At least we agree on something. Back when you purchased you E92 it was a somewhat competetive car for the segment but in the mean time AMG has continued to up the anti with their Black Series line and cars like the Camaro ZL1 and Mustang Boss 302 and Cobra and Audis RS5 have all out gunned the M cars. I honestly never thought I woukd see the day that a Chevy or Nissan could flat out $#@! slap an M3...remeber Sticky, I used to be a die hard M guy.
        BMW left the M3 stagnant. They just want money now, that's it.

        I've even thought about seriously writing a book on the topic of how BMW sold out.
      1. Jimefam's Avatar
        Jimefam -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
        Bottom line, BMW has not done $#@! since the E46. The E9x is an awesome car , don't get me wrong, only problem is the is a company named MB/AMG competing with them and overshadowing their every move. New M5.....LMAO, Epic fail.

        You only need to take a look at the Lightening Lap results to see where BMW stands in the global performance market and that is behind AMG....and Audi......and ummmmmm Chevy.....and Ford........and LMAO Jaguar
        While MB is certainly ahead of BMW in building easily modified cars the last few years M enjoyed that for far longer. I'm in the middle of choosing my next car and really as much as I try to convince myself on the new E63 its looks arent great and if it drives similar to the current E its a bit soft. The awd thing is the only thing pulling me toward MB or a GTR. The biggest drawback to seeing the M5 run as it should right now is bmw making the tuning so damn difficult but from what AMS seems to be saying they might have a way around that. If your being as closed minded as to just look at numbers the ctsv $#@!s on all in that segment and iirc no MB in history has run what a full out ctsv will run fairly easily.
      1. 654's Avatar
        654 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
        Bottom line, BMW has not done $#@! since the E46. The E9x is an awesome car , don't get me wrong, only problem is the is a company named MB/AMG competing with them and overshadowing their every move. New M5.....LMAO, Epic fail.

        You only need to take a look at the Lightening Lap results to see where BMW stands in the global performance market and that is behind AMG....and Audi......and ummmmmm Chevy.....and Ford........and LMAO Jaguar
        e92 335i did beat e.g. Audi S4 in the lighting lap 2006 or 2007. S4 was considered more M3 opposition than being in the league of the low 335i. The BMW stagnation has happened after 2007 and e9x introduction.
      1. 654's Avatar
        654 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
        I am not sure though. Why do we want an M3 (taking the extreme end of this) with All Wheel Drive? I would rather them put their money into a trick diff over all wheel drive. All the retards over at nonsensepost.com are saying "PLEASE BMW!!! MY NEXT DREAM M3 WOULD BE TURBO AND AWD" - sad part is BMW caters to these people (enough people scream and yell - they will get it).

        I want a freaking performance car, not this fluffy cute bull$#@!. I don't see the point of an AWD car to be honest, unless we are talking 1000s of horsepower. I have driven many - they feel disconencted, and most of the time heavy. I even think it's ridiculous to offer a 911 in AWD unless it's a turbo (maybe). We see how a performance car can be in the snow with proper tires (M3 vs summer tire thread) - there is absolutely no reason for AWD unless you are TRULY using it for rocking the dragstrip.

        /rant
        When RWD and AWD were let to compete in WRC, it was soon clear which one is true performance car if you measure it by championships. After 1982 when Audi Quattro entered WRC, the 2WD was doomed. The last manufacturer's championship won by a 2wd car was 1983 Lancia Rally 037, my all time favorite car. But let's face it, since year 1984 AWD has dominated for three decades straight. This is with very limited displacement and very limited turbo inlet diameter, i.e. far below 1000hp.

        The M3 in the snow you refer to is VERY slow. I would beat it running, lol.

        Attachment 26551

        Have something like in the above, and the slippery conditions don't bother you.

        I have enough power to lose traction several days, weeks and even months in a year. If you don't have traction problems ever, you are probably not having power enough.

        The AWD has clear merits, especially on ice and snow. Not offering xi in the models that have the most power/torque does not make any sense. Why do they offer xi in 160bhp vehicles then? The traction MUST BE A PROBLEM even at that level since they are offering it and people are buying them, wouldn't you agree?

        I'm NOT against of having RWD option available. i believe M3 must have RWD option. But why are some people opposing options such as xi, that clearly make sense for many?
      1. inlineS54B32's Avatar
        inlineS54B32 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
        When RWD and AWD were let to compete in WRC, it was soon clear which one is true performance car if you measure it by championships. After 1982 when Audi Quattro entered WRC, the 2WD was doomed. The last manufacturer's championship won by a 2wd car was 1983 Lancia Rally 037, my all time favorite car. But let's face it, since year 1984 AWD has dominated for three decades straight. This is with very limited displacement and very limited turbo inlet diameter, i.e. far below 1000hp.

        The M3 in the snow you refer to is VERY slow. I would beat it running, lol.

        Attachment 26551

        Have something like in the above, and the slippery conditions don't bother you.

        I have enough power to lose traction several days, weeks and even months in a year. If you don't have traction problems ever, you are probably not having power enough.

        The AWD has clear merits, especially on ice and snow. Not offering xi in the models that have the most power/torque does not make any sense. Why do they offer xi in 160bhp vehicles then? The traction MUST BE A PROBLEM even at that level since they are offering it and people are buying them, wouldn't you agree?

        I'm NOT against of having RWD option available. i believe M3 must have RWD option. But why are some people opposing options such as xi, that clearly make sense for many?
        Meh, I don't know. I drive on asphalt not dirt, so the only thing that could change the amount of friction is snow. I live in Chicago, and wouldn't say that the few times a year is worth AWD. Just my opinion. I really don't think a 300 or 400 (500, 600, 700) horsepower car needs AWD is what I am saying. I like the feel of RWD - I admit I have not tried some of the better systems out there, but of what I have tried? No thanks.

        I again - personally don't understand going from RWD to AWD for a few times a year, but that's just me. I like playing with less traction, it's fun. Click here to enlarge

        Why do they offer AWD on 160 hp vehicles? I have no idea. That's my point. Maybe for countries where it's snowing or is icy a few months out of the year - but I can't be sure. I don't mind a 335i in all wheel drive, but an M3 or M5? I personally think that the entire chassis should be redesigned (or a whole different car) - you just don't slap AWD on a car with 50/50 weight distribution - which was clearly done for the merits of RWD.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
        ou just don't slap AWD on a car with 50/50 weight distribution - which was clearly done for the merits of RWD.
        So what happened to the 50/50 weight distribution?
      1. JRCART's Avatar
        JRCART -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
        e92 335i did beat e.g. Audi S4 in the lighting lap 2006 or 2007. S4 was considered more M3 opposition than being in the league of the low 335i. The BMW stagnation has happened after 2007 and e9x introduction.
        I totally agree and you are provng my point, what has BMW done since 2007-2008, that was 5-6 years ago and they are now on a new generation boy/engine platform. Is a new 2013 335i really any better than a 2008 335i? I do not thnk so.
      1. JRCART's Avatar
        JRCART -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        While MB is certainly ahead of BMW in building easily modified cars the last few years M enjoyed that for far longer. I'm in the middle of choosing my next car and really as much as I try to convince myself on the new E63 its looks arent great and if it drives similar to the current E its a bit soft. The awd thing is the only thing pulling me toward MB or a GTR. The biggest drawback to seeing the M5 run as it should right now is bmw making the tuning so damn difficult but from what AMS seems to be saying they might have a way around that. If your being as closed minded as to just look at numbers the ctsv $#@!s on all in that segment and iirc no MB in history has run what a full out ctsv will run fairly easily.

        AMG builds easily modifiable cars????? Hmmmmm, this is news to me LOL
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
        AMG builds easily modifiable cars????? Hmmmmm, this is news to me LOL
        He's probably referring to the turbo motors.
      1. JRCART's Avatar
        JRCART -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        He's probably referring to the turbo motors.
        Easily modified to me means buying a Mustang GT500, going to Summit racing's website dropping $2500 on headers, exhaust, intake, pulley and tune and going to the drag strip and running high 10's......
      1. justohigh's Avatar
        justohigh -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
        I totally agree and you are provng my point, what has BMW done since 2007-2008, that was 5-6 years ago and they are now on a new generation boy/engine platform. Is a new 2013 335i really any better than a 2008 335i? I do not thnk so.
        No! The 08 335i is better than the 2013. N54 FTW!
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
        Easily modified to me means buying a Mustang GT500, going to Summit racing's website dropping $2500 on headers, exhaust, intake, pulley and tune and going to the drag strip and running high 10's......
        So Renntech tune and running 10's doesn't qualify?
      1. JRCART's Avatar
        JRCART -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        So Renntech tune and running 10's doesn't qualify?
        Good point....LOL but the Renntech tune costs more than all the other stuff for the Mustang
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
        Good point....LOL but the Renntech tune costs more than all the other stuff for the Mustang
        Was just going by the $2500 price point. AMG's have gotten easier to modify with the turbo motors.