Close

    • IND-Distribution and AMS Performance attempting to take the F10 M5 S63tu Twin Turbo V8 to 1000+ horsepower - M5 Alpha with forged internals and big turbos

      Everyone knew that turbo motors in M cars meant far more tuning would be taking place as well as some very big gains. Well, AMS Performance of Nissan GT-R Alpha package fame will be applying their expertise to the S63tu V8 in the F10 M5 as well as the F12/F13 M6. The goal is over 1000 horsepower and BimmerBoost does not doubt it will be achieved although obviously the build process, testing, and development is going to take some time.


      IND and AMS point out that some of the components in the S63tu are not built with huge aftermarket power gains in mind. No surprise here as BMW just wants the car to last the warranty period so that means the lowest cost components that will suffice for this time period. AMS is not going further into what components they need to replace but obviously there will be a good amount of OEM parts that will not cut it for 1000+ horsepower.

      Here are photos of the stock rods, pistons, rings, and wrist pins all of which will obviously be replaced with stronger aftermarket components:




      Something interesting to note is that the top of the piston states N63/S63tu. The N63tu and S63tu both share the same compression ratio and with the markings on the piston it sure seems safe to come to the conclusion that the S63tu and N63tu pistons are the exact same thing to save BMW money. Easy to see why this is an area to upgrade with BMW sharing components with less powerful motors and cutting costs. Hey, welcome to the BMW turbo era.

      That's it for now, we will all have to wait and see how this develops but considering the results AMS has achieved with the GT-R BimmerBoost certainly is confident the 1000+ hp goal will be reached... eventually.

      Video of the M5 on the AMS dnyo below:


      This article was originally published in forum thread: IND-Disitrubtion and AMS Performance attempting to take the F10 M5 S63tu Twin Turbo V8 to 1000+ horsepower - M5 Alpha with forged internals and big turbos started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 75 Comments
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        We are saying the same thing. Cracking the DME and figuring it out is whats difficult, not so much writing a tune for x y z mods once we have full control. ESS apparently claims they do which if true should mean that writing a tune for whatever ams cranks out shouldn't be too tough. I have my doubts as you do whether they actually do have that type of control as I dont think anyone does(which is why I was getting out of bmw in the first place).
        Well you said the tuning is easy but I'm including that in the factory DME so yes overlap.
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Problem with a standalone is you lose all the other functions that depend on the DME. I-drive, etc.
        We'll see, cause that's what Undercover's been saying about the ProEFI standalone -- that it should allow the user to keep iDrive, Comfort Access, etc etc while controlling all engine related functions. I don't know how the ProEFI works on the turbo E46 M3s, but I assume that the Nav & Keyless Entry haven't been negatively impacted (just like on the AEM/HPF Turbo M3s).

        I don't think it'd be worthwhile comparing to other platforms (since the BMW DME is it's own beast), but the GTR, 997 Turbos + TT-Gs don't lose their Nav, Keyless Entry or any other features when they go standalone (with MoTec, ProEFI, Syvecs, etc etc etc)
      1. ZooyorQ's Avatar
        ZooyorQ -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        This. You wont see a standalone on this platform ever I would think because of how integrated the stock DME is with all the other functions the car performs.
        "standalone" by definition.. maybe not.. but piggy back with full motor control.. maybe. With newer ecu's like Syvecs having the capability to program CAN developers can now do more than just throwing resistors in to trick the dme into thinking its still controlling the injectors, coils, etc.. you can now intercept and or modify can signals back to the stock dme thus tricking it into thinking all is fine.
      1. ZooyorQ's Avatar
        ZooyorQ -
        Btw, taking a CMM/3D Laser scan of the engine bay is step 1.. they still have a long ways to go.
      1. dzenno@PTF's Avatar
        dzenno@PTF -
        Awesome
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        We'll see, cause that's what Undercover's been saying about the ProEFI standalone -- that it should allow the user to keep iDrive, Comfort Access, etc etc while controlling all engine related functions. I don't know how the ProEFI works on the turbo E46 M3s, but I assume that the Nav & Keyless Entry haven't been negatively impacted (just like on the AEM/HPF Turbo M3s).

        I don't think it'd be worthwhile comparing to other platforms (since the BMW DME is it's own beast), but the GTR, 997 Turbos + TT-Gs don't lose their Nav, Keyless Entry or any other features when they go standalone (with MoTec, ProEFI, Syvecs, etc etc etc)
        Yes but look at how hard it is to get the standalone to work in conjunction with the factory DME. Nobody has even done it yet.
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Yes but look at how hard it is to get the standalone to work in conjunction with the factory DME. Nobody has even done it yet.
        Perhaps stand-alone is misleading, like ZooyorQ said the modern trend has been "stand-togethers" where the aftermarket EMS controls all engine related functions while the OEM DME is maintained to keep all the factory "convenience features".

        BUT you addressed it, while a lot of other platforms it's easier to adapt this to (the GTR, 997 Porsche, etc), BMW's tech people have made it very difficult for retuning the OEM DME and even dual-EMS (DME + Standalone) integration
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        I'm sick of BMW's electronic bull$#@!.
      1. FI Fan's Avatar
        FI Fan -
        AMS has the ability to tune ECU's in house for almost all cars. They have the ability to decode stock files and rewrite to them. It cost them a small fortune and TONS of development hours but they do indeed write all of their tunes in house. Not just load some file you can buy but actually write the tune and calibrate it custom on their dyno. They do this for the R8, Gallardo, Continental GT, new E63 etc etc etc. At the present time they do not have the ability to read and write to the BMW M5 ECU and for this reason they are going to work with ESS and IND to offer an immediate solution. When they are given the ability to read and write to the factory ECU they will have their own tuning options available as well.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by FI Fan Click here to enlarge
        AMS has the ability to tune ECU's in house for almost all cars. They have the ability to decode stock files and rewrite to them
        Not this one though. Yet.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by FI Fan Click here to enlarge
        At the present time they do not have the ability to read and write to the BMW M5 ECU and for this reason they are going to work with ESS and IND to offer an immediate solution.
        Ya but nobody has full control of this ECU yet. It will essentially be a waiting game and I'm talking years not months. I mean no offense, but ESS has not shown the level of tuning prowess necessary to make this happen although I fully wish them luck.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by FI Fan Click here to enlarge
        When they are given the ability to read and write to the factory ECU they will have their own tuning options available as well.
        Agreed. This is the key.
      1. FI Fan's Avatar
        FI Fan -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Not this one though. Yet.



        Ya but nobody has full control of this ECU yet. It will essentially be a waiting game and I'm talking years not months. I mean no offense, but ESS has not shown the level of tuning prowess necessary to make this happen although I fully wish them luck.



        Agreed. This is the key.
        I know they dont yet, I don't understand why you felt the need to separate my first sentence I clearly stated in the following sentence that the F10 M5 is an exception. I was merely trying to clear up the false statement that AMS doesn't tune in house... quite the contrary.

        Regarding your waiting game comment how do you know its going to take years? That is a pretty bold statement. Do you have any background in this field of ECU encryption? People said the GT-R could never be tuned. One year later AMS ran a 9 second pass...two years later an 8 second pass. Time will tell what can be done and when it can be done but throwing out any kind of a timeline at this point is about as accurate as throwing a dart blindfolded. Let's give all parties the benefit of the doubt until they can prove otherwise.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by FI Fan Click here to enlarge
        I know they dont yet, I don't understand why you felt the need to separate my first sentence I clearly stated in the following sentence that the F10 M5 is an exception
        For emphasis. It's the most important part, isn't it?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by FI Fan Click here to enlarge
        Regarding your waiting game comment how do you know its going to take years?
        Because this isn't my first rodeo with a modern M car and I spend a slight bit of time reading/researching them.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by FI Fan Click here to enlarge
        Do you have any background in this field of ECU encryption? People said the GT-R could never be tuned.
        There's a difference between having a million Asians all working in unison on decrpyting an ECU and a company like Nissan who uses the GTR as a matter of pride and knows it will be a mod platform due to its history versus BMW who does everything they can to make the ECU a pain in the ass to decipher and the car itself to modify.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by FI Fan Click here to enlarge
        One year later AMS ran a 9 second pass...two years later an 8 second pass.
        Yep, because the ECU was cracked and they do an awesome job. AMS is great.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by FI Fan Click here to enlarge
        Time will tell what can be done and when it can be done but throwing out any kind of a timeline at this point is about as accurate as throwing a dart blindfolded.
        No, it's based on experience and knowledge.
      1. FI Fan's Avatar
        FI Fan -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        There's a difference between having a million Asians all working in unison on decrpyting an ECU and a company like Nissan who uses the GTR as a matter of pride and knows it will be a mod platform due to its history versus BMW who does everything they can to make the ECU a pain in the ass to decipher and the car itself to modify.
        Somewhere along the way you were giving some pretty bad info. Cobb helped crack the ECU and while they might have a few employees of Asian decent on their staff (I'm not sure) I can tell you with utmost certainty the entire staff is under that of 100 people let alone a million.

        Also the GT-R is a matter of pride amongst Nissan but I think you will be surprised as to what they think of companies like AMS that play with what they consider "perfection" they do not look kindly upon modifying the GT-R and take great insult at the mere thought. They took as many steps as they could to PREVENT the very type of thing AMS is doing with it.

        I do 100% agree the BMW ECU has its own roadblocks but if it can be written...it can be decoded. Time will tell how long that will take. We are just going to have to sit back and let those that can....do.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by FI Fan Click here to enlarge
        Somewhere along the way you were giving some pretty bad info. Cobb helped crack the ECU and while they might have a few employees of Asian decent on their staff (I'm not sure) I can tell you with utmost certainty the entire staff is under that of 100 people let alone a million.
        I really don't think so. I have no doubt in Cobb's skill but to assume that the country of origin for the car and its tuners didn't play a role is a bit naive.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by FI Fan Click here to enlarge
        Also the GT-R is a matter of pride amongst Nissan but I think you will be surprised as to what they think of companies like AMS that play with what they consider "perfection" they do not look kindly upon modifying the GT-R and take great insult at the mere thought. They took as many steps as they could to PREVENT the very type of thing AMS is doing with it.
        Their is the corporate view and then the real view. Nissan plays with the car themselves with all the different software modes and ecu tune profiles. They were doing it since back in the R32, R33, R34 days when they themselves modified their cars to take to the ring. It's politics really.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by FI Fan Click here to enlarge
        I do 100% agree the BMW ECU has its own roadblocks but if it can be written...it can be decoded. Time will tell how long that will take. We are just going to have to sit back and let those that can....do.
        Exactly. I'm just saying this is going to be a long process.
      1. FI Fan's Avatar
        FI Fan -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I really don't think so. I have no doubt in Cobb's skill but to assume that the country of origin for the car and its tuners didn't play a role is a bit naive.
        Not naive at all, I speak from first hand experience. I was very close to this process at the time it was being done. There were other companies in Japan (HKS, Greddy, ETC) that cracked it on their own time but I can tell you that the gentleman at Cobb used their in house engineers to crack the GT-R ECU and they were the first to do it the level that allowed for near limitless tuning. I can also tell you that Nissan didn't help them at ALL in this process. In fact they did what they could to deter them.

        Anyway, I have steered this pretty off topic. Lets hope this process moves along quicker than later Click here to enlarge
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by FI Fan Click here to enlarge
        Not naive at all, I speak from first hand experience. I was very close to this process at the time it was being done.
        Yes I got the impression you had some "interest" in this.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by FI Fan Click here to enlarge
        There were other companies in Japan (HKS, Greddy, ETC) that cracked it on their own time but I can tell you that the gentleman at Cobb used their in house engineers to crack the GT-R ECU and they were the first to do it the level that allowed for near limitless tuning.
        I don't doubt that just wanted to point out Japanese tuners are humping the GT-R pretty hard too.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by FI Fan Click here to enlarge
        I can also tell you that Nissan didn't help them at ALL in this process. In fact they did what they could to deter them.
        To an extent, of course, but Nissan isn't stupid and knows how popular these things are to modify.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by FI Fan Click here to enlarge
        Anyway, I have steered this pretty off topic. Lets hope this process moves along quicker than later
        No worries this forum likes discussion that is open ended.
      1. DFM's Avatar
        DFM -
        Anyone heard anything about this build? My guess is no but this one interests me quite a lot so if there is some new info on it please share Click here to enlarge
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DFM Click here to enlarge
        Anyone heard anything about this build? My guess is no but this one interests me quite a lot so if there is some new info on it please share Click here to enlarge
        Honestly, big lack of info for now.
      1. Black335i's Avatar
        Black335i -
        Didnt ams say they were gonna make an upgraded turbo set up like 2-3 years ago for n54 lol. where is it?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Black335i Click here to enlarge
        Didnt ams say they were gonna make an upgraded turbo set up like 2-3 years ago for n54 lol. where is it?
        I don't know never heard anything about that .