• IND-Distribution and AMS Performance attempting to take the F10 M5 S63tu Twin Turbo V8 to 1000+ horsepower - M5 Alpha with forged internals and big turbos

                    
      		   
      Published on 02-18-2013 06:53 PM
      5 Comments Comments
      Everyone knew that turbo motors in M cars meant far more tuning would be taking place as well as some very big gains. Well, AMS Performance of Nissan GT-R Alpha package fame will be applying their expertise to the S63tu V8 in the F10 M5 as well as the F12/F13 M6. The goal is over 1000 horsepower and BimmerBoost does not doubt it will be achieved although obviously the build process, testing, and development is going to take some time.


      IND and AMS point out that some of the components in the S63tu are not built with huge aftermarket power gains in mind. No surprise here as BMW just wants the car to last the warranty period so that means the lowest cost components that will suffice for this time period. AMS is not going further into what components they need to replace but obviously there will be a good amount of OEM parts that will not cut it for 1000+ horsepower.

      Here are photos of the stock rods, pistons, rings, and wrist pins all of which will obviously be replaced with stronger aftermarket components:




      Something interesting to note is that the top of the piston states N63/S63tu. The N63tu and S63tu both share the same compression ratio and with the markings on the piston it sure seems safe to come to the conclusion that the S63tu and N63tu pistons are the exact same thing to save BMW money. Easy to see why this is an area to upgrade with BMW sharing components with less powerful motors and cutting costs. Hey, welcome to the BMW turbo era.

      That's it for now, we will all have to wait and see how this develops but considering the results AMS has achieved with the GT-R BimmerBoost certainly is confident the 1000+ hp goal will be reached... eventually.

      Video of the M5 on the AMS dnyo below:

      This article was originally published in forum thread: IND-Disitrubtion and AMS Performance attempting to take the F10 M5 S63tu Twin Turbo V8 to 1000+ horsepower - M5 Alpha with forged internals and big turbos started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 58 Comments
      1. M3_WC's Avatar
        M3_WC - 02-19-2013, 03:57 PM
        Lots and lots of money.
      1. Black Sheep's Avatar
        Black Sheep - 02-19-2013, 04:03 PM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I really doubt AMS even remotely cares about the N54.
        They cared for a little bit, they were doing tunes with the CPE standback back in 2009. Now they dgaf about the n54. Evo was there baby now the gtr is
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky - 02-19-2013, 04:37 PM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Black Sheep Click here to enlarge
        They cared for a little bit, they were doing tunes with the CPE standback back in 2009. Now they dgaf about the n54. Evo was there baby now the gtr is
        More money/prestige in the high end GTR market. The M5 packages won't be cheap either.
      1. Black Sheep's Avatar
        Black Sheep - 02-19-2013, 04:46 PM
        No doubt
      1. Jimefam's Avatar
        Jimefam - 02-19-2013, 05:32 PM
        Hmmm and here i've been thinking of jumping ship from bmw and getting a gtr or E63. I wonder if their packages will work for an N63 or if ill have to get an M5. Frankly I prefer the M5 to the E and the gtr is small for my needs so glad to see there might be a future in this platform after all.
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 - 02-19-2013, 06:23 PM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        Hmmm and here i've been thinking of jumping ship from bmw and getting a gtr or E63. I wonder if their packages will work for an N63 or if ill have to get an M5. Frankly I prefer the M5 to the E and the gtr is small for my needs so glad to see there might be a future in this platform after all.
        WELL since you're contemplating an F10 M5, you should also know that Switzer is cooking up an S63 Tu upgrade as well: http://switzerperformanceinnovation.com/web_en/?p=1941. Cannot go wrong with either of those companies.
      1. Jimefam's Avatar
        Jimefam - 02-20-2013, 08:58 PM
        ESS will be doing the tuning on this. I'm sure a few of you will love that.
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 - 02-20-2013, 09:11 PM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        ESS will be doing the tuning on this. I'm sure a few of you will love that.
        ESS is doing the tuning on an AMS project (who has always done their own tuning) Click here to enlarge Yea I don't think so, you have any confirmation?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky - 02-20-2013, 09:55 PM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        ESS will be doing the tuning on this. I'm sure a few of you will love that.
        We'll see how/if they do. I don't know why AMS wouldn't do it themselves.
      1. Jimefam's Avatar
        Jimefam - 02-20-2013, 10:04 PM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        ESS is doing the tuning on an AMS project (who has always done their own tuning) Click here to enlarge Yea I don't think so, you have any confirmation?
        AMS doesn't do their own tuning solutions on any platform that I'm aware of. They use Cobb on the GTR etc but they have never created their own tuning solution they just tuned on what was available. I spoke to AMS yesterday and they had told me that they wouldn't be doing the tuning but didn't give any more info. Today I was on the thread where all the info here came from and asked about tuning and the IND rep wrote that ESS would create a tune for it. Hell I thought it was a mistake and asked him if he meant to say AMS and he said:

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ilia@IND Click here to enlarge
        We will work with ESS to develop software specifically tailored to AMS hardware packages. In developing our F10 M5 project our goal was to partner with the best possible companies, to allow for the best possible M5. We feel that by putting all of the right people in the roles where they are most capable, we will be able to offer an excellent performance package for our clients.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        We'll see how/if they do. I don't know why AMS wouldn't do it themselves.
        I believe for the reason above.
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 - 02-20-2013, 10:12 PM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        AMS doesn't do their own tuning solutions on any platform that I'm aware of. They use Cobb on the GTR etc but they have never created their own tuning solution they just tuned on what was available.
        While AMS is using the COBB AP, it's still AMS doing all the end tuning. If they leave it up to ESS, chances are they're gonna be in way over their heads. AMS does big HP turbo platforms, so it would bein their wheelhouse if they did the tuning themselves. I'm sure when Switzer starts releasing F10 M5/F12 M6 packages, they'll be doing all their own tuning for the same reasons, it's in their wheelhouse.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky - 02-20-2013, 10:15 PM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        AMS doesn't do their own tuning solutions on any platform that I'm aware of. They use Cobb on the GTR etc but they have never created their own tuning solution they just tuned on what was available. I spoke to AMS yesterday and they had told me that they wouldn't be doing the tuning but didn't give any more info. Today I was on the thread where all the info here came from and asked about tuning and the IND rep wrote that ESS would create a tune for it. Hell I thought it was a mistake and asked him if he meant to say AMS and he said:



        I believe for the reason above.
        IND and ESS work together so we'll see I guess.
      1. Jimefam's Avatar
        Jimefam - 02-20-2013, 10:20 PM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        While AMS is using the COBB AP, it's still AMS doing all the end tuning. If they leave it up to ESS, chances are they're gonna be in way over their heads. AMS does big HP turbo platforms, so it would bein their wheelhouse if they did the tuning themselves. I'm sure when Switzer starts releasing F10 M5/F12 M6 packages, they'll be doing all their own tuning for the same reasons, it's in their wheelhouse.
        Right I agree completely but what I gathered from the guy at AMS they were alittle out of their depth when it came to cracking the bmw DME(who the $#@! isn't apparently) and ESS has been at it for a while so they are leaving the tuning in ESS's hands. I'm sure they will have a say in how things are done but I know ESS has been trying to get to be able to tune these dme's on the F10 for over 2 years so I dont think they are willing to just hand that over. Switzer from what I was told after you posted up about them yesterday doesn't have the DME cracked either. That is what separates bmw from most platforms it seems, the fact that 99% of "tuners" out there cant really WRITE a tune and change everything to their liking like they can on other platforms. I have to admit I was pretty disappointed when they wrote that ESS was handling the tuning.

        When you say its in their wheelhouse its not really accurate. Yes they are very good at making hardware and tuning a car for that hardware on an existing tuning platform. However neither company goes in and creates a program to actually tune any car they use existing programs which is why they need ESS. I think the problem in this case is that ESS sells tunes not tuning software like a COBB or Motec so they need to be doing the tuning to stay involved, but thats just my speculation.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky - 02-20-2013, 10:29 PM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        Right I agree completely but what I gathered from the guy at AMS they were alittle out of their depth when it came to cracking the bmw DME(who the $#@! isn't apparently) and ESS has been at it for a while so they are leaving the tuning in ESS's hands. I'm sure they will have a say in how things are done but I know ESS has been trying to get to be able to tune these dme's on the F10 for over 2 years so I dont think they are willing to just hand that over. Switzer from what I was told after you posted up about them yesterday doesn't have the DME cracked either. That is what separates bmw from most platforms it seems, the fact that 99% of "tuners" out there cant really WRITE a tune and change everything to their liking like they can on other platforms. I have to admit I was pretty disappointed when they wrote that ESS was handling the tuning.
        Exactly so how are they going to figure out what is necessary to make a 1000 HP setup work? They don't even have their tune available yet and we're already talking big turbos, fuel systems, etc.?
      1. Jimefam's Avatar
        Jimefam - 02-20-2013, 10:52 PM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Exactly so how are they going to figure out what is necessary to make a 1000 HP setup work? They don't even have their tune available yet and we're already talking big turbos, fuel systems, etc.?
        Thats where AMS comes in, all the hardware is cake for them and actually tuning the car isn't the hard part. The hard part is being able to control the DME exactly how you want to be able to write a tune in the first place. That is what everyone is stuck at and what ESS appears to have just been able to do. Whether that is the case or not we will shortly find out. If they can control the dme fully I dont think the rest will be a problem but at least I've heard from several tuners out there who claim they can and upon further inspection its false. I hope its true cause I'm about 4 months away from ordering a new car and if they show in that time they actually can WRITE a tune instead of simply install one they got from someone else as all the other companies(dinan excluded) are doing I'll be getting an M5.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky - 02-20-2013, 10:59 PM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        actually tuning the car isn't the hard part.
        I disagree, it's the hardest part. The BMW DME takes years to figure out correctly. We are only just now getting an S54 factory DME tuned turbo kit.

        This isn't going to be easy.
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 - 02-20-2013, 11:01 PM
        Take ESS out of the standalone & skip cracking the BMW DME -- It's gonna be easier (and more effective for their HP goals) to go complete standalone with the engine management system, especially with the turbo tuning and management.

        It seems like ESS was only invited to the party because they're more familiar with working on the BMW DME. Honestly, I would've expected them to contact more tenured BMW tuners, specifically Active Autowerke (there's ~0% Dinan would get involved with this kind of a project), but for all we know AA was contacted and has preferred to avoid collaboration projects like this.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky - 02-20-2013, 11:07 PM
        Problem with a standalone is you lose all the other functions that depend on the DME. I-drive, etc.
      1. Jimefam's Avatar
        Jimefam - 02-20-2013, 11:14 PM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I disagree, it's the hardest part. The BMW DME takes years to figure out correctly. We are only just now getting an S54 factory DME tuned turbo kit.

        This isn't going to be easy.
        We are saying the same thing. Cracking the DME and figuring it out is whats difficult, not so much writing a tune for x y z mods once we have full control. ESS apparently claims they do which if true should mean that writing a tune for whatever ams cranks out shouldn't be too tough. I have my doubts as you do whether they actually do have that type of control as I dont think anyone does(which is why I was getting out of bmw in the first place).
      1. Jimefam's Avatar
        Jimefam - 02-20-2013, 11:15 PM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Problem with a standalone is you lose all the other functions that depend on the DME. I-drive, etc.
        This. You wont see a standalone on this platform ever I would think because of how integrated the stock DME is with all the other functions the car performs.
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