• Already severely outgunned? Car Magazine claims the new F80 M3 will have 444 horsepower from its turbo inline-6

      Bavaria, we have a problem. The new M3 is coming and it isn't packing enough of a punch under the hood. We knew it would have a turbocharged inline-6 but we did not seriously think it would only have another 30 horses on the E9X M3 with its 414 horsepower naturally aspirated V8. The new C63 AMG is rumored to have a twin turbo 4.0 liter V8 and considering the C63 AMG (in Black Series trim) already is putting out more to the wheels than this M3 will be rated at the crank let alone what the new turbo C63 AMG will put out the new M3 is going to get smacked around badly if this is true.


      Someone at BMW apparently thinks only another 30 horses is a good idea. The S65 V8 in the E92 M3 offered another 70 horsepower AT THE WHEELS over the E46 M3 it replaced. With Mercedes bringing the heat and Audi set to go to a turbo motor, this does not look like it is going to cut it. 30 more horsepower? Is this a joke?

      The only bright side BimmerBoost can see is that the new M3 may be severely underrated just like the F10 M5. Let's assume this is the case and apply what we have all seen with the F10 M5 to the new M3. That would mean 417 wheel horsepower for the new M3 despite its appallingly low crank rating. That would also mean an increase of 67 wheel horsepower over the E92 M3 which is a hell of a lot better than 30 horsepower at the crank.

      With the new turbo motors BMW is making a habit of underrating them especially in M trim. The low crank rating likely designed not to insight a horsepower war with Mercedes and Audi which is already going on anyway with Mercedes already raising the stakes in the V8 arena. Regardless, assuming about 420 wheel horsepower (which is a best case scenario with a 444 hp crank rating) BMW is not going to win the raw power battle as they did with the F10 M5 temporarily until Mercedes regains the crown.

      BMW M3 fans may be starting to sweat just a bit.
      This article was originally published in forum thread: Already severely outgunned? Car Magazine claims the new F80 M3 will have 444 horsepower from its turbo inline-6 started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 164 Comments
      1. DubSport's Avatar
        DubSport -
        So much emphasis on horsepower... frick we all grow accustomed and numb to our horsepower within a few months anyways. It's all about the DRIVE ...and Nurburgring lap times. Click here to enlarge I'm betting the new M3 will be quicker around the track than the new C63. PS this is nothing new, Mercedes has historically had the higher HP cars, but the true enthusiast vehicle is the BMW.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DubSport Click here to enlarge
        PS this is nothing new, Mercedes has historically had the higher HP cars, but the true enthusiast vehicle is the BMW.
        Only the latter part of your statement is true. It is only with the last couple generations that Mercedes has really taken the HP/torque crown.
      1. M3_WC's Avatar
        M3_WC -
        Not buying this extreme weight reduction rumor. There is only so much weight they can take off modern cars.
      1. DubSport's Avatar
        DubSport -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Only the latter part of your statement is true. It is only with the last couple generations that Mercedes has really taken the HP/torque crown.
        Thinking back... Practically every year of BMW there was at the time a more powerful offering by Mercedes. Not necessarily direct competitors but I'm just sayin. So no this is not earth shattering news sticky... we expected this.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DubSport Click here to enlarge
        Thinking back... Practically every year of BMW there was at the time a more powerful offering by Mercedes. Not necessarily direct competitors but I'm just sayin. So no this is not earth shattering news sticky... we expected this.
        E30 M3 more powerful than Mercedes 190E. Handed it its ass in DTM.

        E28 M5 basically had no competition.

        E34 M5 comes along, still nothing.

        E36 M3, no real competition from Mercedes. Absurdly powerful in Euro trim with the S50. Still somewhat hard to believe it was that ahead of its time. BMW got away with giving the USA almost 100 less horsepower and the car was STILL better than everything.

        E46 M3 comes out, makes everyone wet. I camp out at the dealership until I get one basically. Mercedes only had AMG models to rival after they had a controlling interest in AMG acquiring 51% officially in 1999. This led to the supercharged W203 C32 AMG. Benz douchebags proclaim superiority. I take my stock E46 M3 and race a stock C32 AMG. I win, race after race, and post video on bimmerforums and mbworld. Much cheering ensues, parade thrown, banned from MBworld and Bimmerforums for a while due to rubbing it in the doubters faces.

        E39 M5 is still king at this time. W210 E55 has only 350 horsepower and the E39 M5 spits in its face and laughs. Not only does it have more power but a better chassis along with a real manual transmission.

        AMG gets pissed off from BMW M peeing on them and stealing their lunch money circa 2003. They deliver a supercharged W211 E55. The 600 model V12's get turbos. They raise the stakes with the 65 AMG to a level nobody thought they would which BMW has no answer for and still doesn't. BMW pretty much pretends the Benz twin turbo V12's with over 600 horsepower don't exist.

        Regardless, BMW's remain the better drivers cars. BMW makes a mistake with the E60 M5 by not delivering more displacement than the E39 M5 but the motor has 100 horses on it and up top its faster than the E55. But, Mercedes-AMG closed the gap strictly power wise.

        That brings us to today where people act like AMG's have always been more powerful yet the new M5/M6 is more powerful than the E63 even with the performance package. It was BMW's that were always more powerful for the longer period of history. The competition just caught up and BMW focused more on delivering the entire package. Well, now Mercedes has Black Series. And BMW has "i". And "i" think that's bull $#@!.
      1. Bimmer182's Avatar
        Bimmer182 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        E30 M3 more powerful than Mercedes 190E. Handed it its ass in DTM.

        E28 M5 basically had no competition.

        E34 M5 comes along, still nothing.

        E36 M3, no real competition from Mercedes. Absurdly powerful in Euro trim with the S50. Still somewhat hard to believe it was that ahead of its time. BMW got away with giving the USA almost 100 less horsepower and the car was STILL better than everything.

        E46 M3 comes out, makes everyone wet. I camp out at the dealership until I get one basically. Mercedes only had AMG models to rival after they had a controlling interest in AMG acquiring 51% officially in 1999. This led to the supercharged W203 C32 AMG. Benz douchebags proclaim superiority. I take my stock E46 M3 and race a stock C32 AMG. I win, race after race, and post video on bimmerforums and mbworld. Much cheering ensues, parade thrown, banned from MBworld and Bimmerforums for a while due to rubbing it in the doubters faces.

        E39 M5 is still king at this time. W210 E55 has only 350 horsepower and the E39 M5 spits in its face and laughs. Not only does it have more power but a better chassis along with a real manual transmission.

        AMG gets pissed off from BMW M peeing on them and stealing their lunch money circa 2003. They deliver a supercharged W211 E55. The 600 model V12's get turbos. They raise the stakes with the 65 AMG to a level nobody thought they would which BMW has no answer for and still doesn't. BMW pretty much pretends the Benz twin turbo V12's with over 600 horsepower don't exist.

        Regardless, BMW's remain the better drivers cars. BMW makes a mistake with the E60 M5 by not delivering more displacement than the E39 M5 but the motor has 100 horses on it and up top its faster than the E55. But, Mercedes-AMG closed the gap strictly power wise.

        That brings us to today where people act like AMG's have always been more powerful yet the new M5/M6 is more powerful than the E63 even with the performance package. It was BMW's that were always more powerful for the longer period of history. The competition just caught up and BMW focused more on delivering the entire package. Well, now Mercedes has Black Series. And BMW has "i". And "i" think that's bull $#@!.
        Good point sir...+1 Rep
      1. Irishace's Avatar
        Irishace -
        You should find out how much the cars weighs before determining that it is outgunned. If it drops 200lbs over the e90 then it will eat mercs for breakfast.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Irishace Click here to enlarge
        You should find out how much the cars weighs before determining that it is outgunned. If it drops 200lbs over the e90 then it will eat mercs for breakfast.
        That might be why the article was posted with a question mark.
      1. M3_WC's Avatar
        M3_WC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Irishace Click here to enlarge
        You should find out how much the cars weighs before determining that it is outgunned. If it drops 200lbs over the e90 then it will eat mercs for breakfast.
        How so...Benz said they are working towards weight savings as well. And then there will be the two extra cylinders.

        Where exactly are they going to get this 200 pounds? Carbon fiber roof, trunk lid, hood...won't even make a dent in that 200 lbs. I think that other forum is spreading rumors BMW won't be able to back up.
      1. StinkyM's Avatar
        StinkyM -
        Rumors are saying BMW has targeted the E46 M3 for weight. That's going to be what affects the Merc the most. Currently the C63 is sitting a tick under 4k lbs. That new engine will push it over 4k lbs. If BMW stays true to these rumors, the power to weight ratio will be a huge factor in comparisons. I'm expecting the M3 to be another bench mark car. However, another part of me is thinking BMW doesn't care about this hp race between them Audi and Mercedes. It's getting heated very quickly but BMW is trying to produce their cars too quickly to get them on the market at the right time to stay ahead of the curve. We will have to wait until the new M3 is out to see where BMW is going with the M cars. The M5/6 haven't dissappointed too much as far as the engines are concerned.
      1. StinkyM's Avatar
        StinkyM -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3_WC Click here to enlarge
        How so...Benz said they are working towards weight savings as well. And then there will be the two extra cylinders.

        Where exactly are they going to get this 200 pounds? Carbon fiber roof, trunk lid, hood...won't even make a dent in that 200 lbs. I think that other forum is spreading rumors BMW won't be able to back up.
        I'm thinking it most definitely will be through the use of carbon fiber. They just collaborated with Boeing to organize and develop carbon fiber at their plant in Washington.
      1. Flinchy's Avatar
        Flinchy -
        i find it amusing that it's 'only 444' hp.. i understand why, but take it out of context and it's hilarious.
      1. Flinchy's Avatar
        Flinchy -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        AMG gets pissed off from BMW M peeing on them and stealing their lunch money circa 2003. They deliver a supercharged W211 E55. The 600 model V12's get turbos. They raise the stakes with the 65 AMG to a level nobody thought they would which BMW has no answer for and still doesn't. BMW pretty much pretends the Benz twin turbo V12's with over 600 horsepower don't exist.

        firstly.. did you actually camp a dealership? that would be awesome haha

        and secondly.. yeah it's a bit disappointing that their N74B60 only makes 544hp, and it only exists in a luxobarge.. i mean, i'm sure it's a beautiful drive, but if they can get the F10 M5 to 560+ hp, the N74 certainly has a lot LOT more room to crank up the boost...

        give us an S74B60(tu? lol) dammit!
      1. cstavaru's Avatar
        cstavaru -
        I think the M3 will have either 320kW (435hp) or 325kW (440-445hp). But if you compare the power bands coupled with the almost certain weight reduction, the new M3 will be worlds better than any M3 before it and also better than any Mercedes C63 or Audi RS4/RS5. It's not fair to compare the M3 with Black Series (you have the M3 GTS or CSL for that comparison), you must compare with the regular C63 AMG. I really like the small engine / decent power philosophy because we need efficiency, that's a fact of the present and future. The only problem will be that if the engine is 3.0 liters, it will probably not be very tuneable given the fact that the N54 335i is kind of maxed out at 400-420whp (on PUMP gas) even with RB turbos.

        An 8000RPM redline would not surprise me, and it will also set the M3 apart from others especially given the fact that it's a turbo engine.

        I really hope they will also get the engine sound right, but of course it will be challenging for an inline 6 engine. The current M3 does not sound as good as other american V8s, it's a shame.
      1. sharkatron's Avatar
        sharkatron -
        I also came across an article mentioning e46 weight was in their sights. Horsepower is one thing, but weight is truly another - handling should be crisper and sharper!
      1. Brey335i's Avatar
        Brey335i -
        From my point of view as a potential buyer in the future, the new M3 needs to be extremely competitive with power and weight as well as still drive the way an M3 should. I fear that the power may not be enough and that simultaneously the move to a turbocharged setup and other F30 components may dull the driving experience.

        If the M3 stops being an M3 then in my mind, I'd rather have the C63 or any other brutally powerful car. I can forgive being down on power but only if it adheres to the M3 formula. I love driving my S54. It's amazing. I want the new M3 to remind me of that... not my 335. If it's too much like my 335 then I'd rather buy the Merc and shred tires everywhere I go.

        Yes, I'm a sellout. But I think I speak for a lot of potential enthusiast buyers when I say that it needs to put a grin on my face when I drive it, because I know the C63 AMG does...
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3_WC Click here to enlarge
        How so...Benz said they are working towards weight savings as well. And then there will be the two extra cylinders.
        The AMG Mercs are also getting AMG spec all wheel drive systems, which adds lots of weight & hurt performance (kills power/weight ratio, can negatively impact handling characteristics of the car, etc)

        Because we can only go off the sedan comparison (E90 vs. F30), here's where things are going:
        • E90 335i Curb Weight: 3650 lbs (taken from passenger door)
        • F30 335i Curb Weight: 3555 lbs (taken from BMWUSA.com)


        So at this point, BMW has shaved ~100 lbs from the previous model 335i while making the car slightly bigger. With the M3, the DCT & heavy duty cooling systems will add weight, hopefully all the lightweight materials (CF roof, aluminum doors, etc etc) can offset & lose a few spare pounds.
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Brey335i Click here to enlarge
        Yes, I'm a sellout. But I think I speak for a lot of potential enthusiast buyers when I say that it needs to put a grin on my face when I drive it, because I know the C63 AMG does...
        impossible! your the minority of the speakers, but somehow make up the majority of prospective buyers and speakers, so your opinion doesnt count. making you and every other owner smile is not on the critique sheet that determines if a car is awesome or not..
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by StinkyM Click here to enlarge
        Rumors are saying BMW has targeted the E46 M3 for weight. That's going to be what affects the Merc the most. Currently the C63 is sitting a tick under 4k lbs. That new engine will push it over 4k lbs. If BMW stays true to these rumors, the power to weight ratio will be a huge factor in comparisons. I'm expecting the M3 to be another bench mark car. However, another part of me is thinking BMW doesn't care about this hp race between them Audi and Mercedes. It's getting heated very quickly but BMW is trying to produce their cars too quickly to get them on the market at the right time to stay ahead of the curve. We will have to wait until the new M3 is out to see where BMW is going with the M cars. The M5/6 haven't dissappointed too much as far as the engines are concerned.
        I don't understand how they are targeting the E46 M3 weight. The C63 is 4000 pounds now and the W205 is expected to get bigger.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        The AMG Mercs are also getting AMG spec all wheel drive systems, which adds lots of weight & hurt performance (kills power/weight ratio, can negatively impact handling characteristics of the car, etc)
        Good point on the 4Matic.