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    • ESS VT3-725 supercharged built motor E92 M3 S65 V8 compared to VT2-625 - Underwhelming results?

      There are going to be several built motor supercharged S65 V8 M3 V8 setups starting to roam the streets this year. ESS will have the VT2-725, Gintani will have their Stage III and Stage III+, and Active Autowerke will have their level 4. Each takes a different approach with ESS using the same Vortech V3Si blower their kits already employ, Gintani offering Vortech T-Trim, V3, and YSI options, and Active Autowerke employing a Rotrex C-38 but is able to accommodate other blowers as well.

      Here is the different between a VT3-725 and a VT2-625 supercharger setup, both on DCT M3's with meth in SAE correction:


      645 wheel for the built motor setup and 586 wheel for the stock internal setup. VT2-650 kits claim to be over 600 wheel on stock internals so one has to ask themselves if it is worth the cost to build a motor for only 50 wheel horsepower? $15,000+ on top of the supercharger kit for 50 wheel? Sure this power will likely be more reliable but one has to scratch their head at this price for performance ratio. It certainly makes sense to upgrade to a VT3 setup if one were to take the stock motor too far though.

      The Vortech blower used here is approaching its limit. For a built motor application, it would seem to be a bit undersized as 12 psi is not providing all that much versus the 7.5 psi of the stock internal kit partially due to the lower compression. To really see solid gains a bigger blower is necessary. Gintani has shown up to 16.5 psi with a Vortech YSI thus far and higher dyno results on the lower reading Dyno Dynamics dyno.

      Hopefully a comparison of the three major built motor setups will be able to be made soon.
      This article was originally published in forum thread: ESS VT3-725 supercharged built motor E92 M3 S65 V8 compared to VT2-625 - Underwhelming results? started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 173 Comments
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        I think the different vendors, have chosen differnt paths, i think some have gone too low comp., so its providing less than expected results
      1. Andrew@activeautowerke's Avatar
        Andrew@activeautowerke -
        Changing your oil more frequently on a high reving motor wont exactly stop oil starvation by any means since starvation would conclude that no oil is in the engine. I was talking more about the motor oil "additives" wearing out and the lubricating qualities that protect your engine beginning to steadily diminish.

        The s65 does run a ton of oil pressure though so maybe its a harmonics issue causing it to spin a bearing ? These are all guesses but I would love to know for sure.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mr.Squeeze Click here to enlarge
        It will get worse and be more of a slug the lower you go wiht compression. Also you can over sping the SI and well people over spin Vortech blower all them time. For a built motor the YSI has to be used if it was my M it's a V8 for gods sake.
        Yes but it's about max power and top end.

        The T-Trim can be overspun more, the YSI more than either.

        You don't have to tell me about the YSI, I agree and have been saying this forever. These other guys don't get it.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
        I think the different vendors, have chosen differnt paths, i think some have gone too low comp., so its providing less than expected results
        It's more like they went too small of a blower. They could mill the heads to raise compression.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Andrew@activeautowerke Click here to enlarge
        Changing your oil more frequently on a high reving motor wont exactly stop oil starvation by any means since starvation would conclude that no oil is in the engine. I was talking more about the motor oil "additives" wearing out and the lubricating qualities that protect your engine beginning to steadily diminish.

        The s65 does run a ton of oil pressure though so maybe its a harmonics issue causing it to spin a bearing ? These are all guesses but I would love to know for sure.
        Well I don't want this oil issue to cause me problems on a built motor setup. I will have an upgraded oil system but what else can I do?

        Ok change oil quicker, fine. But what else? I have addressed the bearings.

        Upgrading the pumps is one thing, but how do I completely resolve this? Dry sump?
      1. onurleft's Avatar
        onurleft -
        Kinda underwhelming but the car is only doing 12.5psi. When the smaller pullies go on I think anyone who decides to go for this build will deem it worthy. Isn't fuel the limiting factor for most of these ESS builds?
      1. Pea's Avatar
        Pea -
        There seems to be a fuel limit around 600 whp depending on which fuelpump the car has from factory
        ( there are at least 2 or 3 types) the dme has a protection system that cuts the fuel if the motor is runnig lean.
        Some tuners are raising the lean protection system, something that is ok if done while messuring the afr.
        I am loking for a fuelupgradesystem, that could make it possible to run on E85,there are a lot of ponies to be find there.
        If someon have any suggestion heer i am all ears.
        Just bought a new M3 since i totaled my M3 on a track day 3 week ago.
      1. Andrew@activeautowerke's Avatar
        Andrew@activeautowerke -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Well I don't want this oil issue to cause me problems on a built motor setup. I will have an upgraded oil system but what else can I do?

        Ok change oil quicker, fine. But what else? I have addressed the bearings.

        Upgrading the pumps is one thing, but how do I completely resolve this? Dry sump?
        Dry sump might work but without knowing "why" I can't begin to tell you how to fix it for sure.
      1. evolve's Avatar
        evolve -
        Underwelming?

        What did you expect? It's the law of diminishing returns.

        Now if you wanted another 50hp you would need around 15-16PSi and the amount of heat that would be produced would need a much better charger cooler setup. Or a radical air to air setup like using a HS Marstons core.

        This is good power. The more you want over the bolt on kits the cost will exponentially rise.... like this is.
      1. inlineS54B32's Avatar
        inlineS54B32 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Itsbrokeagain Click here to enlarge
        Maybe if it gets too worn out and watery it cavitates the pump and can't do its job protecting the bearings on the crank? I would always change it at 5k. $#@! 7500 or more.

        Well any kind of throttle response from down low is gonna be a slug in any car...you just aren't moving enough air to really get the motor up and going.

        I agree with the oil changes - even though I have heard otherwise from just about everyone. I change it every 5k on my car.

        If you think the throttle response is bad down low on any car, drive an E46 M3 - the throttle response is ridiculous right off of idle. The e9x is right up there, but I feel the S54 was more responsive. Compared to a 335, it's not even comparable.
      1. black bnr32's Avatar
        black bnr32 -
        what fuel?

        why not run better fuel on stock compression motors?


        oh also,

        TURBOOOOOO. DO EEEIT.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by black bnr32 Click here to enlarge
        what fuel?

        why not run better fuel on stock compression motors?


        oh also,

        TURBOOOOOO. DO EEEIT.
        Fuel isn't the problem.

        I'm going to have to go dry sump.
      1. black bnr32's Avatar
        black bnr32 -
        so, what fuel?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by onurleft Click here to enlarge
        Kinda underwhelming but the car is only doing 12.5psi. When the smaller pullies go on I think anyone who decides to go for this build will deem it worthy. Isn't fuel the limiting factor for most of these ESS builds?
        Fuel maybe but you can't really go much further with that blower without diminishing returns. Simply too small. The YSI even gets maxed.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
        Underwelming?

        What did you expect? It's the law of diminishing returns.
        What I expect.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
        This is good power. The more you want over the bolt on kits the cost will exponentially rise.... like this is.
        Disagree, this is nothing. Sure if you want to go further the costs rise but it really is all about the bower.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by black bnr32 Click here to enlarge
        so, what fuel?
        Whatever fuel it takes.
      1. black bnr32's Avatar
        black bnr32 -
        nvm
        graph says pump + meth

        how do you guys know if the blower is maxed without knowing the pulley sizes?
      1. Flinchy's Avatar
        Flinchy -
        Am i the only onethat thinks this motor should be able to make ... Well

        going by the 3.0 L n54 with a 7000rpm limit... And the s65 at 4.0L with 8250rpm...

        that's 17% more rpm, say 650whp from an s65 built should be a walk in the park when an unopened n54 with bigger turbos smashes past 550whp

        don't get me wrong, i'd prefer an m3 in so many ways and the s65 is BRILLIANT..

        but for not just the performance now... But how much better it's getting, the n54 powered cars can be much faster (POTENTIALLY)
      1. black bnr32's Avatar
        black bnr32 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
        Am i the only onethat thinks this motor should be able to make ... Well

        going by the 3.0 L n54 with a 7000rpm limit... And the s65 at 4.0L with 8250rpm...

        that's 17% more rpm, say 650whp from an s65 built should be a walk in the park when an unopened n54 with bigger turbos smashes past 550whp

        don't get me wrong, i'd prefer an m3 in so many ways and the s65 is BRILLIANT..

        but for not just the performance now... But how much better it's getting, the n54 powered cars can be much faster (POTENTIALLY)
        You're not the only one. just need somebody to have full control over an ecu, and a real man's compressor wheel needs to be put somewhere in the intake.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by black bnr32 Click here to enlarge
        nvm
        graph says pump + meth

        how do you guys know if the blower is maxed without knowing the pulley sizes?
        VE of the S65.