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    • Cobb Tuning Stage 2 E82 135i takes on an Evolve tuned Stage I E60 M5

      Just to preface both Evolve and Cobb are vendors on BimmerBoost for good reasons, they have great tunes powering some very fast BMW's. What you see here in this video are two very different tuned vehicles. The E60 M5 with a Stage I Evolve tune and Eisenmann race exhaust for its naturally aspirated 5.0 liter V10 is the camera car. The E82 135i has the Cobb Stage II aggressive with downpipes and a twin turbo N54 3.0 liter I6.

      The M5 runs away up top which is really no surprise. The S85 V10 really shines on the highway where it is at its best. Video is below.




      This article was originally published in forum thread: Cobb Tuning Stage 2 E82 135i takes on an Evolve tuned Stage I E60 M5 started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 65 Comments
      1. Sorena's Avatar
        Sorena -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fast4door Click here to enlarge
        that 135i is not taking the M5 from a dig, roll, backwards, or anything else for that matter..the M5 is a beast..i had a cobb stage 2+ agressive FBO 335i and it was fast, but it doesnt compare to my M5 now, and all I have on the M5 is rpi scoops, block off plates, bmc filters, and miesterchaft full exhaust..cant wait to see how it is once I get it tuned
        WOW what a sin! Click here to enlarge

        But seriously man, I wouldn't give a cent to those guys at eisenhaus/gthaus. Bunch of crooks.

        And as for the tune, i suggest get an Alpha-N tune.
      1. fast4door's Avatar
        fast4door -
        yeah im not really sure what the Alpha N is al about but I defeintly want to look into it..I went on their website and I couldnt tell the difference,,the descritpions were the same for the evolve r and alpha n
      1. khyber's Avatar
        khyber -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fast4door Click here to enlarge
        yeah im not really sure what the Alpha N is al about but I defeintly want to look into it..I went on their website and I couldnt tell the difference,,the descritpions were the same for the evolve r and alpha n
        Search M5Board, a lot of info there. Let me see what I can dig up!

        Alpha-N removes the mafs for a more crisp/less lag throttle response. A M6 owner even reported a better 60-130 vbox time by 0.01/0.02.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fast4door Click here to enlarge
        yeah im not really sure what the Alpha N is al about but I defeintly want to look into it..I went on their website and I couldnt tell the difference,,the descritpions were the same for the evolve r and alpha n
        I think the trouble you are having is a tuner took the name Alpha-N whereas Alpha-N refers to the tuning approach.

        This is a good explanation:

        I know many folks on this board understand quite well what Alpha-N is, but this is for those who don't understand it. I remember how that felt, so I will offer my version of an explanation.

        An engine management computer, regardless of how sophisticated or crude, really only controls two parameters. The ignition timing and the fuel delivery. The computer (DME or some aftermarket brand) uses an array of input sensors to try and determine what state the engine is in at any point in time. Is it loafing along on the freeway at low rpm, or at max throttle climbing a hill at high rpm? Is it hot outside so that the air is thin? Or is it butt cold and the air is real dense?

        The list goes on, but the goal of the computer at all times is to sample its input sensors and then determine the appropriate output signals for ignition timing and fuel delivery (usually this determines how long the fuel injectors fire, which is called the pulse width, but it can also entail "when" to fire the injectors if the injection is sequential).

        The two most important things that the computer wants to know in order to determine spark and fuel are: 1) engine load, and 2) engine rpm.

        Engine rpm is easily determined from a crank sensor. But engine load is a little more tricky. The best parameter to use in determining engine load is the MASS of air entering the engine at any time. If you can measure the mass of air directly then you are well off. Current BMW's do just this with what is called a MAF sensor, or mass air flow sensor. This is usually some type of heated wire or film, which is cooled by the air flowing over it. In order to keep the wire at the same temperature additional electrical current must be provided, and the measure of this extra current gives a fairly direct indication of the mass air flow.

        Our E30 M3's used a similar system, although it measures the VOLUME of air flowing into the engine. The sensor is called an AFM, which stands for air flow meter. The volumetric flow is determined by how far a flapper (or barn door) is pushed aside by the incoming air. The flapper is connected to a potentiometer (variable resistor, POT, wiper, there are many names). But for the computer to know how much fuel to mix with the air it needs to know how many molecules of air are coming in, and that can only be determined by knowing the MASS of the air, not just the volume. So, we need to combine the AFM air volume signal with an air TEMPERATURE measurement Then the air mass can be determined. So we are ok.

        Note that in both cases the computer has some hard data on how much air is entering the engine, so if you improve engine breathing (header cams etc...), the basic code will still sort of work as the computer is aware of the additional air. It's not perfect, but it works ok most of the time for changes that are not too drastically different than the baseline.

        Alpha-N is different. Here there is no direct measurement of either the mass of air, nor the volume of air entering the engine. That way any possible obstruction from either a MAF sensor or AFM sensor in the intake path is removed. The air can flow right into the engine unobstructed. So how does the computer know what to do? It still has rpm info from the crank, but it can't measure the mass of air coming into the engine for fuel mixture determination?

        The answer, in a crude sense, is that you "train" the computer what to do in a given situation (on the dyno). For every possible combination of throttle position and rpm, the tuner determines the appropriate ignition timing and fuel delivery to yield max power but not incur detonation. The computer just remembers all this (in the form of maps which are stored on a chip), and when it sees a certain combination of rpm and throttle position in the field, it just says "what did they tell me to do in this situation?" and does that.

        So now throttle position and RPM are the two dominant input parameters to the engine computer. This is where the Alpha-N name derives from. Alpha for the angle of the throttle plates and N for RPM.

        Now if you have an Alpha-N system, and add a hotter set of cams that allow more air into the engine, but you do not reprogram the Alpha-N computer, then the computer has no knowledge of the extra air now entering the engine and it just gives the fuel and spark that it was told was appropriate for the milder set of cams. One can see how this could be a problem. Your mixture especially, but also your ignition timing will be way off. If your mixture goes lean you can potentially damage the engine. That is why folks say that an Alpha-N system needs to be retuned everytime you make a change to the engine. The computer is "flying blind" to some extent, although it does at least have an air temp sensor and a barro sensor to try to compensate for density changes in the air due to temperature and elevation.

        I have oversimplified some subjects to make it easier to understand, and as usual there is probably more that I did not say than that I did say about Alpha-N, but hopefully that gets some folks a little closer to understanding it.
      1. m5d's Avatar
        m5d -
        I miss my m5! Click here to enlarge
      1. fast4door's Avatar
        fast4door -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I think the trouble you are having is a tuner took the name Alpha-N whereas Alpha-N refers to the tuning approach.

        This is a good explanation:

        [/FONT][/COLOR]
        thanks for that Sticky, much appreciated..I'll definetly look into this more
      1. Sorena's Avatar
        Sorena -
        The Alpha-N tune is somehow dangerous as some say. But if you don't do much vertical travels -like going from a beach to a mountain pick -then you should be fine. Alpha-N gives a razor sharp throttle response and more power.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        The Alpha-N tune is somehow dangerous as some say. But if you don't do much vertical travels -like going from a beach to a mountain pick -then you should be fine. Alpha-N gives a razor sharp throttle response and more power.
        It's not dangerous people just say you don't use it with large altitude changes.
      1. longboarder's Avatar
        longboarder -
        I have only one experience with a modded V10. I followed a heavily modded e60 M6 around Big Willow. His estimated HP was 580. I have an n54 335 with the following engine mods: dci, procede, meth, dps. I made 412/446 corrected. DA's that day were around 4,000 ft.

        Following the M6 around turn 9, I was able to pull on him on the back straight - from ~ 90 mph to 145 mph. I followed him on 3 laps and just kinda stayed with him and then on the 3rd lap decided to pass...I started 2 cars behind after coming around the turn and ended up dead even with him entering turn 1. My pull was quite strong and kept getting stronger as speeds increased.

        This was an event sponsored by Shift-S3ctor, and there was a side by side roll-on portion of the event later in the afternoon...so I went up to the owner of the M6 and asked him to run. I said..."hey we should run because we are very evenly matched....I'm the gray BMW that was behind you a couple laps".

        The owner of the M6 said, so what kinda car do you have? I said 335 with a dci, procede, meth and dps. The M6 owner's eyes got a big and then proceded to tell me that he was done for the day and not doing any more races Click here to enlarge
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by longboarder Click here to enlarge
        The M6 owner's eyes got a big and then proceded to tell me that he was done for the day and not doing any more races
        Sounds like he didn't have the HP he was bragging about.
      1. longboarder's Avatar
        longboarder -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Sounds like he didn't have the HP he was bragging about.
        You are correct Sticky...because it was at high DA's.

        For those signed up for the roll on events, Shift-S3ctor reps write down our estimate crank HP on our rear window so that the participants can better organize races with one another. This M6 was not stock - it had mods and the owner estimated crank HP at 580. Was it making 580 HP that day? No way - it was at Big Willow which is at 2,300 ft elevation and the roll-on was in the afternoon with temp guages reading upper 80's/low 90's on the hot taramac. DA's were likely over 4,000 ft...maybe even closer to 5,000 ft.

        Even though my crank HP is around 450 at sea level, it's also around 450 at 5,000 ft DA's since the turbo's are still targeting 19psi peak taper to 16.5 psi.

        I would like to run a modded M5/M6 at sea level doing a roll-on from around 40 mph into the the triple digits. From a dig would be no contest.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by longboarder Click here to enlarge
        I would like to run a modded M5/M6 at sea level doing a roll-on from around 40 mph into the the triple digits. From a dig would be no contest.
        For the M5 or you?
      1. longboarder's Avatar
        longboarder -
        I can do 0-60 in 3.5 seconds on the VBox. Uphill. Starting in 2nd gear. With street tires.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        With a headwind too?
      1. TZ04XJR's Avatar
        TZ04XJR -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by longboarder Click here to enlarge
        I can do 0-60 in 3.5 seconds on the VBox. Uphill. Starting in 2nd gear. With street tires.
        Impressive... I only wish we were closer, I'd run you from 0-160+ any day, temp, altitude, uphill etc.. All in good fun of courseClick here to enlarge
        You may have a shot of taking me, but at least I'll sound damn good while getting pulled.. Click here to enlarge



        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        With a headwind too?
        Lol.. With 4 attractive young females in the back seat, A/C on full blast and 4 sets of golf clubs in the trunk Click here to enlarge

        -TZ
      1. longboarder's Avatar
        longboarder -
        Sticky I know you posted this originally but the owner of the 135 needs a proper tune + meth and that little car will be quite something! N54's + meth is just a crazy combination and in a little 135...wow those cars fly. I've been the passenger in Terry Burger's 135 a few times and it's very impressive.

        The thing about the N54's (totally different than the n55's) is that with meth, they just keep pulling and pulling. Probably not as strong as a modded M5/M6 in triple digits, but the fact that they are so light should provide for a large initial advantage. Obviously the M5/M6 will pass it eventually given the higher terminal speed. Case in point, I ran two ESS supercharged 535 e92 M3's (one 6MT and the other was 7DCT). You would think these cars would have a significant top end advantage to my 335 with 4 bolt ons.
        But that was not the case...in both races (one on the back at Big Willow the other at the Trona Airstrip) starting at ~ 40 mph, I got the initial jump (torque advantage) but then the M3's gained and passed me until triple digits where I reversed the M3's pull and started pulling on them. On the run with the 7DCT, we were both disadvantaged slightly - he had a slight boost leak and i had inconstent meth flow - but it was interesting that the outcomes were very similar.
      1. longboarder's Avatar
        longboarder -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TZ04XJR Click here to enlarge
        Impressive... I only wish we were closer, I'd run you from 0-160+ any day, temp, altitude, uphill etc.. All in good fun of courseClick here to enlarge

        Lol.. With 4 attractive young females in the back seat, A/C on full blast and 4 sets of golf clubs in the trunk Click here to enlarge

        -TZ
        Your car sounds awesome I'm jealous! It sounds like an F1 car! I'm getting rid of the 335i soon for a proper car - a 2013 e92 M3. It will be ready later this month and I already bought an Arkapovic exhaust with an MRF mid pipe. Zero cats Click here to enlarge

        I will miss the absolutely explosive torque of the 335. And it does get off the line very well - even though I've only V-Box'd it about 10 times 0-60, I'm sure I could improve on it quite a bit. The Wavetrack LSD, Michelin PSS and Procede traction control feature work very well. Different set ups but Terry's 135 was logging 3.0 and 3.1 second runs and i think hotrod182's 335 was even at 2.9 seconds if I remember correctly with street tires. I don't think I could ever achieve that, but maybe 3.2 - 3.3 if I practiced. It would be hard for a RWD 4,000 pound car like the M5 to do that.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by longboarder Click here to enlarge
        Sticky I know you posted this originally but the owner of the 135 needs a proper tune + meth and that little car will be quite something! N54's + meth is just a crazy combination and in a little 135...wow those cars fly. I've been the passenger in Terry Burger's 135 a few times and it's very impressive.

        The thing about the N54's (totally different than the n55's) is that with meth, they just keep pulling and pulling. Probably not as strong as a modded M5/M6 in triple digits, but the fact that they are so light should provide for a large initial advantage. Obviously the M5/M6 will pass it eventually given the higher terminal speed. Case in point, I ran two ESS supercharged 535 e92 M3's (one 6MT and the other was 7DCT). You would think these cars would have a significant top end advantage to my 335 with 4 bolt ons.
        But that was not the case...in both races (one on the back at Big Willow the other at the Trona Airstrip) starting at ~ 40 mph, I got the initial jump (torque advantage) but then the M3's gained and passed me until triple digits where I reversed the M3's pull and started pulling on them. On the run with the 7DCT, we were both disadvantaged slightly - he had a slight boost leak and i had inconstent meth flow - but it was interesting that the outcomes were very similar.
        I'm sure the meth would help him but the nature of the S85 is top end. The flat curve + high revs are what make it a strong autobahn type car. The N54 is more about power down low and runs out of breath with its tiny turbos.
      1. TZ04XJR's Avatar
        TZ04XJR -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by longboarder Click here to enlarge
        Your car sounds awesome I'm jealous! It sounds like an F1 car! I'm getting rid of the 335i soon for a proper car - a 2013 e92 M3. It will be ready later this month and I already bought an Arkapovic exhaust with an MRF mid pipe. Zero cats Click here to enlarge

        I will miss the absolutely explosive torque of the 335. And it does get off the line very well - even though I've only V-Box'd it about 10 times 0-60, I'm sure I could improve on it quite a bit. The Wavetrack LSD, Michelin PSS and Procede traction control feature work very well. Different set ups but Terry's 135 was logging 3.0 and 3.1 second runs and i think hotrod182's 335 was even at 2.9 seconds if I remember correctly with street tires. I don't think I could ever achieve that, but maybe 3.2 - 3.3 if I practiced. It would be hard for a RWD 4,000 pound car like the M5 to do that.
        Thanks! My beast has been in the shop for a couple weeks and I'm having withdrawals from the sound alone.. 335i's will always have my respect.. From the sounds of it, yours is a beastClick here to enlarge Your M3 is going to sound amazing with the Arka exhaust! Post up some vids when you get a chance..

        -TZ
      1. Sonny's Avatar
        Sonny -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TZ04XJR Click here to enlarge
        That's good to know! I'm glad I could help persuade you into the beast. In all reality I can't think of a more well rounded car for a performance car enthusiast. I've daily driven mine for a year and a half. It really does it all, not to mention, IMO its the sexiest sounding sedan of all time. Click here to enlarge

        -TZ
        Gonna have to agree with you there re: the sound. I kind of wish I had an M5 compared to my C63. I love the C63 but I always stare and wonder when I see the M5 drive by. Such an amazing car with a legendary engine.