• Next generation M5 to lose manual transmission option, M3 will continue to have manual offered - Manual dying?

      It was only a matter of time before this happened, the manual will be dead in the M5 after the F10. The manual in the M5 already was eliminated everywhere in the world except in the USA starting with the previous generation E60. The numbers simply do not justify BMW continuing to offer a manual in the M5 as orders with the manual option are declining. BMW M's head of engineering Albert Biermann stated, "Last year, maybe 15-20 percent of our M5s in the U.S. were manuals and maybe this year it will be 15 percent. It's declining. The trouble is that nobody wants it in Europe or anywhere else, so this will be the last time we do it, even for the hard-core U.S. buyers."

      We were surprised to begin with that BMW catered to the U.S. market in such a fashion but it was nice that we finally got something everyone else did not. The M3 will continue to have a manual option however as according to Biermann, "The M3 needs to have a stick shift. It will always have a stick shift."

      We have a feeling it will only be a matter of time before the manual is gone in the M3 as well. It all comes down to economies of scale and the trend we saw in the M5 will no doubt carry over to the M3 at some point. Expect to see this reasoning applied in the future to more models, "We just can't justify it anymore. It's a no-cost option, but it's been very difficult to do. Theoretically the stick is cheaper, but it's very low volumes and we have to strengthen everything in the gearbox and find space for the shifter and another pedal, so it doesn't work out cheaper."

      Funny how a dual clutch transmission that costs thousands more than the manual simply becomes the cheaper option due to volume. Whether people want to admit it or not, the manual transmission is slowly dying.

      This article was originally published in forum thread: Next generation M5 to lose manual transmission option, M3 will continue to have manual offered - Manual dying? started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 56 Comments
      1. Sorena's Avatar
        Sorena -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        It can shift manually too.

        People seriously are stupid.
        This conversation is pointless. It can shift manually too? Most torque convert transmissions can do that too. a CVT with fixed gear ratios can do that too. But of course, after all i'm a stupid person and don't get it.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dreikraft Click here to enlarge
        yea but then why can i make faster shifts in the smg when i focus on shift points? its an automatic right?
        I'm not talking about shift speeds, gear change jerkiness, etc... I've had cars with PDK, DCT, SMG III. They are good at what they are and if i buy a M5 it will have DCT instead of 6MT, but after all transmissions that can shift on their own sit in automatic category because they shift automatically (and have the ability to shift manually).
      1. Autobahn335i's Avatar
        Autobahn335i -
        On a racetrack, in the hands (and feet) of a pro driver, a manual may be as fast as a DCT or automatic. But can all of us heel-toe or double-clutch perfectly, 100% consistently?? When I track my car, I always put the 6AT in manual mode and it's a great to be able to focus on the lines without taking the hands of the steering wheel. And the tranny rev-matching for me when down-shifting and thereby not upsetting the rear end in braking zones.

        So I'll admit I'm not the perfect driver, but I don't give a damn. We use ABS on our cars even though we could threshold brake ourselves, or can't we? Click here to enlarge

        Technology advances, and so does it on our cars. Even if "purists" don't like to admit it. Or should I say "nostalgics".
      1. Scourge82's Avatar
        Scourge82 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
        On a racetrack, in the hands (and feet) of a pro driver, a manual may be as fast as a DCT or automatic. But can all of us heel-toe or double-clutch perfectly, 100% consistently?? When I track my car, I always put the 6AT in manual mode and it's a great to be able to focus on the lines without taking the hands of the steering wheel. And the tranny rev-matching for me when down-shifting and thereby not upsetting the rear end in braking zones.

        So I'll admit I'm not the perfect driver, but I don't give a damn. We use ABS on our cars even though we could threshold brake ourselves, or can't we? Click here to enlarge

        Technology advances, and so does it on our cars. Even if "purists" don't like to admit it. Or should I say "nostalgics".
        +1 on that.

        The manual is dying a slow death. all the top super car makers Ferrari, Pagani, Lamborghini, etc ditched or are ditching manual in favor for a F1 style auto sequential gear box.
        It sucks, but there isn't really a point in fighting it. People want to feel like race car drivers and guess what the top racing sport F1 use in their cars, a semi-automatic sequential gearbox. Also most people are too lazy now adays, they don't want to take the time to learn a manual
      1. Sorena's Avatar
        Sorena -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Scourge82 Click here to enlarge
        Also most people are too lazy now adays
        This is the problem that will end the human race. We are getting so lazy. People want cars that brush their teeth or clean their butts when they are driving.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        This conversation is pointless. It can shift manually too? Most torque convert transmissions can do that too. a CVT with fixed gear ratios can do that too. But of course, after all i'm a stupid person and don't get it.
        No you don't get it because as just because it has software providing automatic shifts does not make it an automatic transmission. That is a generalization and an incorrect one. So because it can shift manually that makes it a manual transmission? It is simply it's own category. What is so hard to understand?
      1. Obioban's Avatar
        Obioban -
        If the shifting is automated, it's automatic. If they shifts are performed manually, it's manual. Pressing a button isn't shifting, it's triggering an automated sequence.

        DCT's days are numbered anyway. BMW's head of transmission design said they'll be changing to torque converter based automatics in the next generation. At least that should end the debate of if people own automatics or not.

        I'd post a link, but sticky set it up so I can't Click here to enlarge
      1. Scourge82's Avatar
        Scourge82 -
        Not sure why BMW would ditch DCT especially when they are moving away from manual. DCT, SMG, etc are becoming very popular. BMW has been screwing up lately but I highly doubt they will just put regular auto's in their cars especially the M brand. If anything, I can see DCT based transmissions becoming the norm.

        I don't think DCT, SMG, etc transmissions fall in either auto or manual category. It is it's own thing. I swear we had this discussion not long ago....
      1. leo985i's Avatar
        leo985i -
        It seems like this discussion will never end here. I think everyone understands that the DCT is not a real automatic transmission because it doesnt have a torque converter, almost everyone knows this. I think what people are trying to say is that it doesn't have a manual clutch that you have to engage/disengange with your left foot, instead it has paddle shifters which are used to shift the car semi-manually, and it also has the the "D" drive which automatically shifts for you. <---so the term automatic applies, since there is no manual clutch. Yet, it's not an automatic transmission lol. I think we need new name designations for all transmissions, even the automatic ones with semi-automated shifting programs, as those could also be semi-automated transmissions, since they are using a program to let the driver shift the gears semi-manually, just like a DCT, but of course the mechanics are different from a DCT or SMG.

        Anyhow, this discussion is retarded.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Obioban Click here to enlarge
        If the shifting is automated, it's automatic. If they shifts are performed manually, it's manual. Pressing a button isn't shifting, it's triggering an automated sequence.

        DCT's days are numbered anyway. BMW's head of transmission design said they'll be changing to torque converter based automatics in the next generation. At least that should end the debate of if people own automatics or not.

        I'd post a link, but sticky set it up so I can't Click here to enlarge
        So if the shifting is manual it's manual? Makes sense.

        No, pressing a paddle is shifting as it won't shift unless you do.

        It is it's own category exactly as the definition for the transmission states.

        You are a guest vendor, no links. Also a douchebag.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Scourge82 Click here to enlarge
        I don't think DCT, SMG, etc transmissions fall in either auto or manual category. It is it's own thing. I swear we had this discussion not long ago...
        Exactly. People are stupid.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by leo985i Click here to enlarge
        I think what people are trying to say is that it doesn't have a manual clutch that you have to engage/disengange with your left foot
        Everyone knows this, it's pretty simple.

        What people don't get is the actual physical makeup of the transmission is closer to a manual than an automatic. It isn't an automatic, it is a dual clutch transmission with manual and auto shift modes.

        Yes, the discussion is retarded.
      1. Sorena's Avatar
        Sorena -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        You are a guest vendor
        I didn't know this. What company is run by Obi?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        I didn't know this. What company is run by Obi?
        One not worth anyone's time.
      1. Q4P's Avatar
        Q4P -
        It's funny that Dct transmissions are rated as being the fastest and most effective. Ferrari even uses that BS to sell their cars and say it is formula 1 technology although F1 cars have sinle clutch trannies a la MCT.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
        It's funny that Dct transmissions are rated as being the fastest and most effective. Ferrari even uses that BS to sell their cars and say it is formula 1 technology although F1 cars have sinle clutch trannies a la MCT.
        How is it BS? The DCT shifts faster than a single clutch. F1 rules prohibit a dual clutch but better believe the cars would be faster with it.
      1. Q4P's Avatar
        Q4P -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        How is it BS? The DCT shifts faster than a single clutch. F1 rules prohibit a dual clutch but better believe the cars would be faster with it.
        You fail too capture the weight disadvantage and complexity issues. They have to find the best balance of ruggedness, packaging and speed. In other words, Dct could be better but maybe not at all.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
        You fail too capture the weight disadvantage and complexity issues.
        I do, do I? So the weight is sooo big of a hit the M5 runs what, 3 MPH faster and 4/10's quicker? Wow, what a penalty.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
        They have to find the best balance of ruggedness, packaging and speed. In other words, Dct could be better
        How exactly could it be better?
      1. Q4P's Avatar
        Q4P -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I do, do I? So the weight is sooo big of a hit the M5 runs what, 3 MPH faster and 4/10's quicker? Wow, what a penalty.



        How exactly could it be better?
        What are you comparing the m5 to? I think you misunderstood, I said that a Dct may be a better application for F1 than Mct but because we havent seen it done and the fact that there are other factors at play, it may not be at all.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
        What are you comparing the m5 to? I think you misunderstood, I said that a Dct may be a better application for F1 than Mct but because we havent seen it done and the fact that there are other factors at play, it may not be at all.
        I am comparing the M5 manual and DCT. Also, the Porsche PDK versus manual comparison shows your points about the weight penalty are meaningless as the performance gain is so large is overshadows the extra 50 pounds or so.
      1. Q4P's Avatar
        Q4P -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I am comparing the M5 manual and DCT. Also, the Porsche PDK versus manual comparison shows your points about the weight penalty are meaningless as the performance gain is so large is overshadows the extra 50 pounds or so.
        Sticky you are not the brighest cat in the bunch thats for sure. What you just said is obvious... a fully manual transmission is and will always be slower than a dct. I was comparing a fully automated single clutch MCT tranny used in F1 in comparison to DCTs. Are you going to tell everyone now that the sun is hot?