• Next generation M5 to lose manual transmission option, M3 will continue to have manual offered - Manual dying?

      It was only a matter of time before this happened, the manual will be dead in the M5 after the F10. The manual in the M5 already was eliminated everywhere in the world except in the USA starting with the previous generation E60. The numbers simply do not justify BMW continuing to offer a manual in the M5 as orders with the manual option are declining. BMW M's head of engineering Albert Biermann stated, "Last year, maybe 15-20 percent of our M5s in the U.S. were manuals and maybe this year it will be 15 percent. It's declining. The trouble is that nobody wants it in Europe or anywhere else, so this will be the last time we do it, even for the hard-core U.S. buyers."

      We were surprised to begin with that BMW catered to the U.S. market in such a fashion but it was nice that we finally got something everyone else did not. The M3 will continue to have a manual option however as according to Biermann, "The M3 needs to have a stick shift. It will always have a stick shift."

      We have a feeling it will only be a matter of time before the manual is gone in the M3 as well. It all comes down to economies of scale and the trend we saw in the M5 will no doubt carry over to the M3 at some point. Expect to see this reasoning applied in the future to more models, "We just can't justify it anymore. It's a no-cost option, but it's been very difficult to do. Theoretically the stick is cheaper, but it's very low volumes and we have to strengthen everything in the gearbox and find space for the shifter and another pedal, so it doesn't work out cheaper."

      Funny how a dual clutch transmission that costs thousands more than the manual simply becomes the cheaper option due to volume. Whether people want to admit it or not, the manual transmission is slowly dying.

      This article was originally published in forum thread: Next generation M5 to lose manual transmission option, M3 will continue to have manual offered - Manual dying? started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 56 Comments
      1. whoosh's Avatar
        whoosh -
        We've already seen BMW's commitment to purist driving, or lack thereof, with the latest breed of M products. Bigger, heavier, emphasis on economy with turbocharging. Meanwhile, the guys in Zuffenhausen tweak engines to make them more efficient while giving more power, and make the cars lighter to help both efficiency and performance. Eventually, it will be only Porsche offering the man pedal.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by whoosh Click here to enlarge
        We've already seen BMW's commitment to purist driving, or lack thereof, with the latest breed of M products. Bigger, heavier, emphasis on economy with turbocharging. Meanwhile, the guys in Zuffenhausen tweak engines to make them more efficient while giving more power, and make the cars lighter to help both efficiency and performance. Eventually, it will be only Porsche offering the man pedal.
        Well said. No doubt about it that it will only be Porsche but they will succumb at some point as well.
      1. onurleft's Avatar
        onurleft -
        Porsche is following the same route. Not to mention their 4 door doesn't even offer a true manual and they cut the 6 speed from the Turbo S base Cayenne and GTS.
        I hate how Porsche came out with the Panamera GTS complete with 4wd and an autobox. What kind of purists car is that?

        I'd think the Carrera manual will die out when the M3 one does. The thing I strongly dis-like is why are they developing a true 7 speed manual only to not offer in the next M5? The current F10 M5 6 speed is so cool and with all that torque there's literally no disadvantage other than shift speed, which is almost negated in drivetrain loss and weight of the DCT
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by onurleft Click here to enlarge
        Porsche is following the same route. Not to mention their 4 door doesn't even offer a true manual and they cut the 6 speed from the Turbo S base Cayenne and GTS.
        I hate how Porsche came out with the Panamera GTS complete with 4wd and an autobox. What kind of purists car is that?

        I'd think the Carrera manual will die out when the M3 one does. The thing I strongly dis-like is why are they developing a true 7 speed manual only to not offer in the next M5? The current F10 M5 6 speed is so cool and with all that torque there's literally no disadvantage other than shift speed, which is almost negated in drivetrain loss and weight of the DCT
        The advantage is not negated at all with drivetrain loss or weight of the trans. The DCT m3 and PDK Carrera S shows that clearly.
      1. flipm3's Avatar
        flipm3 -
        As much as I love the DCT in my E90 M3...I still want to buy another 6MT E92 M3. I really hope it doesn't die out Click here to enlarge
      1. onurleft's Avatar
        onurleft -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        The advantage is not negated at all with drivetrain loss or weight of the trans. The DCT m3 and PDK Carrera S shows that clearly.
        First of all, what you said here is total bias bs. It is certainly negated, just not negated fully and more than likely negated fully when a lightweight flywheel is put on a manual transmission car unless the power output is significantly higher then the cars mentioned.

        It's more like the minimal advantages don't nearly make up for the fact that you are driving an automatic IMO.
        It's a great option for an old man, who can't keep up anymore (the majority of the market for these 100k cars)
        The difference between a DCT and a 6 speed on a 12 mile circuit are noticeable, but it's just a small fraction on any track in the United States, assuming you can drive.

        Also, we've seen what an 6 speed M3 and a driver can do to a 7 speed M3 from a roll from owners who've had both AND there really have been no back to back tests proving the DCT's superiority on a US track despite my own belief that it is. The simple humidity and track temperatures could sway the advantage to either car. Not worth the sacrifice if you ask me
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by onurleft Click here to enlarge
        First of all, what you said here is total bias bs. It is certainly negated, just not negated fully and more than likely negated fully when a lightweight flywheel is put on a manual transmission car unless the power output is significantly higher then the cars mentioned.
        The advantage is not negated, it still exists. Are weight and drivetrain losses factors? Yes, but they don't negate the advantage. The DCT still has the advantage.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by onurleft Click here to enlarge
        It's more like the minimal advantages don't nearly make up for the fact that you are driving an automatic IMO.
        It isn't an automatic, those have torque converters. It has an automated shift program as well as a manual shift program.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by onurleft Click here to enlarge
        It's a great option for an old man, who can't keep up anymore (the majority of the market for these 100k cars)
        Yep, hence why I have one since I'm an old man. It's a great option for those who want to beat down manual cars rather easily and have the highest level of performance. Not to mention consistency.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by onurleft Click here to enlarge
        Also, we've seen what an 6 speed M3 and a driver can do to a 7 speed M3 from a roll from owners who've had both AND there really have been no back to back tests proving the DCT's superiority on a US track despite my own belief that it is.
        Here's a back to back test, enjoy: http://www.germanboost.com/content.p...n-the-1-4-mile

        The difference is huge. I'll show you what a manual versus DCT supercharged M3 race looks like. Those with experience already know, it's no contest.
      1. mike335i's Avatar
        mike335i -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        It isn't an automatic, those have torque converters. It has an automated shift program as well as a manual shift program.
        I'm pretty sure the DCT AUTOmates shifting by AUTOMATICally actuating the clutches and shift forks. The TRANSMISSION of power from the engine to the driveshaft is AUTOmated. NO ONE is claiming the DCT has a torque converter. The designation automatic in no way specifies that it must have a torque converter. Just because you can "manually" shift it (albeit through a fully electronic interface) doesn't mean you can claim it to be manual at all.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mike335i Click here to enlarge
        I'm pretty sure the DCT AUTOmates shifting by AUTOMATICally actuating the clutches and shift forks.
        It isn't an automatic, it is an automated manual. It had more in common with a manual transmission than an automatic transmission.

        I'm sick of having this debate with people who don't understand the difference.

        Put it in manual mode and it won't shift for you, end of story.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mike335i Click here to enlarge
        The TRANSMISSION of power from the engine to the driveshaft is AUTOmated. NO ONE is claiming the DCT has a torque converter. The designation automatic in no way specifies that it must have a torque converter.
        Automatic transmissions have torque converters:

        Besides automatics, there are also other types of automated transmissions such as continuous variable transmissions (CVTs) and semi-automatic transmissions, that free the driver from having to shift gears manually, by using the transmission's computer to change gear, if for example the driver were redlining the engine. Despite superficial similarity to other transmissions, automatic transmissions differ significantly in internal operation and driver's feel from semi-automatics and CVTs. An automatic uses a torque converter instead of clutch to manage the connection between the transmission gearing and the engine.

        The DCT is not an automatic. It is a semi-automatic or automated manual. People are stupid.
      1. dreikraft's Avatar
        dreikraft -
        yay! automatic discussions again....

        guys its a e-l-e-c-t-r-o_h-y-d-r-a-u-l-i-c controlled c-l-u-t-c-h...its not the engineers fault you can't shift as fast as a hydraulic system can Click here to enlarge

        maybe BMW can go balls deep with all the money saved from not retooling for a limited batch of manuals so we can have carbon titanium gearbox! lol
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by onurleft Click here to enlarge
        t's more like the minimal advantages
        Check out the numbers for the M5 DCT versus manual and come back and tell me the advantage is minimal again: http://www.germanboost.com/content.p...er-than-manual
      1. fastgti69's Avatar
        fastgti69 -
        LOL no manual in an M car. Why have an M car anyways?
      1. dreikraft's Avatar
        dreikraft -
        i was clutchless shifting the other day in the e36. does that mean it was an automatic that day? rofl


        you guys crack me up sometimes... welcome to todays technology grandpa!
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fastgti69 Click here to enlarge
        LOL no manual in an M car. Why have an M car anyways?
        Well the manual is simply not necessary for performance any longer. It has been surpassed.

        The last thing it offers is driver interaction and control. However, with an increase on emissions and transmissions have 8+ gears in order to maintain good MPG it's days are just numbered.
      1. Sorena's Avatar
        Sorena -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dreikraft Click here to enlarge
        i was clutchless shifting the other day in the e36. does that mean it was an automatic that day?
        Did the car shift on it's own? No, You did. Then it's manual. A transmission that can shift on it's own is automatic; like DCT. It can shift "automatically", right?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        Did the car shift on it's own? No, You did. Then it's manual. A transmission that can shift on it's own is automatic; like DCT. It can shift "automatically", right?
        It can shift manually too.

        People seriously are stupid.
      1. onurleft's Avatar
        onurleft -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fastgti69 Click here to enlarge
        LOL no manual in an M car. Why have an M car anyways?
        Exactly

        Guys just in case your wondering driver interaction and control have nothing to do with performance...


        DCT is fun, cool on a daily (DSG in the direct family) and much more necessary on incredibly fast cars but its just a big diaper on a track. Pobst, Harris, Auberlin, Top Gear, Car and Driver... all back their frustration with the M3's system and performance for a "real" transmission.
        Less blogging and more driving and maybe you'll get it one day
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by onurleft Click here to enlarge
        DCT is fun, cool on a daily (DSG in the direct family) and much more necessary on incredibly fast cars but its just a big diaper on a track. Pobst, Harris, Auberlin, Top Gear, Car and Driver... all back their frustration with the M3's system and performance for a "real" transmission.
        Less blogging and more driving and maybe you'll get it one day
        Latest M5 review just stated the DCT would likely be worth half a second on the track.

        Also, what do I care what Pobst or Harris say? I know exactly how I feel about the trans considering I own one. I don't need to listen to anyone else about it I can form my own opinion from my own experience. Fact remains it is a superior performance option. It is way better on the racetrack or any track.
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by onurleft Click here to enlarge
        First of all, what you said here is total bias bs. It is certainly negated, just not negated fully and more than likely negated fully when a lightweight flywheel is put on a manual transmission car unless the power output is significantly higher then the cars mentioned.

        It's more like the minimal advantages don't nearly make up for the fact that you are driving an automatic IMO.
        It's a great option for an old man, who can't keep up anymore (the majority of the market for these 100k cars)
        The difference between a DCT and a 6 speed on a 12 mile circuit are noticeable, but it's just a small fraction on any track in the United States, assuming you can drive.

        Also, we've seen what an 6 speed M3 and a driver can do to a 7 speed M3 from a roll from owners who've had both AND there really have been no back to back tests proving the DCT's superiority on a US track despite my own belief that it is. The simple humidity and track temperatures could sway the advantage to either car. Not worth the sacrifice if you ask me

        BING-OOOOOO!!

        all this "purist" stuff is BS anyway.. what do they want thats "pure"? seems there are as many definitions as there are people..
      1. dreikraft's Avatar
        dreikraft -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        Did the car shift on it's own? No, You did. Then it's manual. A transmission that can shift on it's own is automatic; like DCT. It can shift "automatically", right?
        yea but then why can i make faster shifts in the smg when i focus on shift points? its an automatic right? shouldnt matter
        why does the smg auto mode suck so bad? its supposed to be an automatic? should be the other way around if it were truly an automatic..(i.e. shifts horribly like a steptronic in manual mode and flawless in auto mode)
        once thing i would like to see is a nonsequential gearbox and fixed paddles (and if not a fixed paddle option then a more direct steering rack ratio) on upcoming models.