• Yet another BMW loss? Motortrend picks the B8 Audi S4 over the F30 BMW 335i

      This is becoming a disturbing pattern although it sure is looking good for Audi. Just earlier this month Car and Driver picked the S6 over the new M5. Insideline also gave a scathing review of the new 640i GranCoupe. Now MotorTrend joins the fray picking the Audi S4 over the new 335i. The Audi significantly outperforms the 335i running 12's in the 1/4 mile stock with a 12.9@108.7. The 335i runs a 13.5@103.9. When is the last time BMW's direct competitor for an Audi model lagged this far behind? We all grew accustomed over the past couple decades to it being the reverse.

      It is not just the acceleration that is the issue, the braking performance of the BMW is very poor in comparison to the S4. 131 feet versus 108 to stop from 60? That is a rather large difference.

      Handling performance also was in the S4's favor pulling .91g's and a 25.6 seconds around their figure 8. The 335i took 26.7 seconds around the figure 8 managing .86g's. The all seasons no doubt hurt it a bit but this does not change the fact the Audi crushed it here by over a second.

      It isn't even the performance necessarily but the steering is muted on the 3 Series, it is more expensive than the Audi, gets worse fuel economy, and the electronics get in the way. MotorTrend says this is odd and to us it is almost like the twilight zone.

      BMW is falling off whether fans want to admit it or not. The new 328i raised the bar on the low end but in the mid-range of the lineup BMW is not innovating in the way they did when the 335i was first introduced. Perhaps the way to look at it is simply that Audi is getting much better. We wish BMW would get out of their slump already since changing over to the turbo motors. Clearly some of the magic is gone. The question is, will they get it back?



      This article was originally published in forum thread: Yet another BMW loss? Motortrend picks the B8 Audi S4 over the F30 BMW 335i started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 85 Comments
      1. Sorena's Avatar
        Sorena -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Like the 335is?

        Forgetting the b6 and b7 s4's were behind? Now that Audi jumped ahead it's unfair? What a joke.
        they were behind of what? 330i? I don't think so at all man. S4 with it's V8 wasn't 330i's rival, as 335i and S4 aren't rivals period.
      1. Autobahn335i's Avatar
        Autobahn335i -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        A future car? Based on the 335? Well until this future vehicle arrives it seems the 335i is and has been the direct competitor to the s4 for some time now.
        On the E9x platform, yes. But now the F30 335i is no longer a sportscar, by a long shot. And with BMW eager to dilute the ///M brand, I'm 100% sure there will be a M335i to close the gap to the M3. With lots of nifty M Performance parts like carbon fiber spoilers, carbon fiber interior trim, tri-stitched steering wheel, tri-stitched shift boot... And handling like a boat!
      1. Sorena's Avatar
        Sorena -
        M335i is going to be exactly like 335is. a 335i with some improvements here and there. They are just playing with the names.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        they were behind of what? 330i? I don't think so at all man. S4 with it's V8 wasn't 330i's rival, as 335i and S4 aren't rivals period.
        The 335 not 330. The S4 and 335 are direct rivals I don't really understand what you don't get. Your theory is based on a car that doesn't even exist being the S4's rival. As of today, right now, the 335 is the S4's direct competition. Both forced induction 6 cylinders in the same price range positioned mid-range in their own model lineup.

        Crazy Insideline for making this comparison which is made basically everywhere and by everyone. Seems you are the only one who doesn't get it.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
        On the E9x platform, yes. But now the F30 335i is no longer a sportscar, by a long shot. And with BMW eager to dilute the ///M brand, I'm 100% sure there will be a M335i to close the gap to the M3. With lots of nifty M Performance parts like carbon fiber spoilers, carbon fiber interior trim, tri-stitched steering wheel, tri-stitched shift boot... And handling like a boat!
        The E9X was a sportscar but the F30 is not? Interesting.

        There will be some M sport garbage likely for the 335i but it will amount to packages that will be available for the 335i as options. When has the 3 Series not had a sport package option? The F30 just came out.

        None of this changes the fact the 335i and S4 are each others direct competition. The fact anyone thinks otherwise I find hilarious.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        M335i is going to be exactly like 335is. a 335i with some improvements here and there. They are just playing with the names.
        Oh but that there is an "S" in S4 throws everything off apparently.

        Maybe if Audi called it the A4 3.0 TFSI you guys would start saying it's a no-brainer.
      1. Sorena's Avatar
        Sorena -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Oh but that there is an "S" in S4 throws everything off apparently.

        Maybe if Audi called it the A4 3.0 TFSI you guys would start saying it's a no-brainer.
        No, if they make a 3.0 TFSI version of A4 2.0, then it's 335i's rival.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        The 335 not 330. The S4 and 335 are direct rivals I don't really understand what you don't get. Your theory is based on a car that doesn't even exist being the S4's rival. As of today, right now, the 335 is the S4's direct competition. Both forced induction 6 cylinders in the same price range positioned mid-range in their own model lineup.

        Crazy Insideline for making this comparison which is made basically everywhere and by everyone. Seems you are the only one who doesn't get it.
        The S4 V8 wasn't 335i's rival. No one ever compared these two cars. The only current gen S4/5 comparison with a BMW i recall was IL's M3 vs S5, not 335i.

        Audi doesn't have a rival for 335i, 550i and 650i GC, period. They have S4, S6 and S7 but they are not 335i and 550i and 650i rival. If they make a V8 version of normal A6, it will be 550i's rival. But they don't, so S6 isn't 550i's rival. Same is true for S4 and S7.

        Let's make it easier:
        What's a 335i? It's a 316d/320i with a 3.0L turbocharged engine.
        What's a S4? Is it a 3.0L superchraged engined regular A4? No!

        IL compared M3 to S5 as well. Does this make S5, M3's rival? No.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        No, if they make a 3.0 TFSI version of A4 2.0, then it's 335i's rival.
        They do, it's called an S4. So there you go, it's the 335i's rival.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        The S4 V8 wasn't 335i's rival. No one ever compared these two cars.
        Nobody?

        The S4 has been the 335i's rival for some time. Seems everyone is comparing them:

        http://www.insideline.com/audi/s4/20...-bmw-335i.html
        http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/vi...door-firepower
        http://www.germancarforum.com/commun...-cc-3-6.44144/
        http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mparison-tests

        The V8 was compared to the 335i, sorry to burst your bubble. Go read old magazines I don't even feel like looking it up right now. You seem to be the only person on the planet who doesn't get it.

        The S5 clearly is positioned closer to the 335i than the M3, duh. The RS5 is the natural comparison there but they likely compared the S5 to the M5 due to the unavailability of the RS5 at the time of the comparison just like what happened with the S6 being compared to the M5 recently.
      1. Sorena's Avatar
        Sorena -
        I was talking about S4 V8 and i mentioned that and i recall no comparison against 335i. You know why? Because at that moment Audi had A4 3.2 V6.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        I was talking about S4 V8 and i mentioned that and i recall no comparison against 335i. You know why? Because at that moment Audi had A4 3.2 V6.
        The B6 and B7 S4's had V8's and were compared to the 335i, I have no idea what you are talking about.
      1. Remonster's Avatar
        Remonster -
        An A4 with a 3.0TFSI is NOT the same as an S4! The S4 has better handling, braking, comes with performance tires and has a different interior with those epic Recaro seats. I keep writing this but it's as if you're reading right past it, the 335i and 328i are the SAME model. Look at BMW's European lineup if it helps, they have the 316i, 318i, 320i, 323i etc. are all of these different models? No. They're the same car with different engine choices.

        The performance levels of the cars is irrelevant so it doesn't matter if the 335i used to be faster than the old S4 and is now slower than the new one. You're right that the 335i is the closest thing to an S4 rival BMW has so it's fine for the magazines to compare them, but they aren't really the same type of car.

        If Audi put a 4 liter V8 into the standard A4 without touching anything else, would that be an M3 rival? Hell no.

        Audi used to have the A4 available with two engines, that 3.2 V6 A4 was the competitor to the BMW 330i and if they still offered such a model, that would be the 335i's competitor. Mercedes has a 335i competitor in the C350 but like BMW, Mercedes doesn't have a mid-tier car to truly compete with the S4. Since BMW is working on an M335i which DOES have upgraded handling and some other unique parts to fight the S4, I'd be pretty confident in thinking that Mercedes will also build a sort of half-AMG model.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Remonster Click here to enlarge
        I keep writing this but it's as if you're reading right past it, the 335i and 328i are the SAME model.
        This does not change the fact the 335i is the direct competitor.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Remonster Click here to enlarge
        If Audi put a 4 liter V8 into the standard A4 without touching anything else, would that be an M3 rival? Hell no.
        It could be if it was positioned in the model hierarchy to be as the S4 is. The S4 is the mid range offering, the 335i is the mid range offering, it's pretty simple folks. This is likely why EVERY magazine, publication, etc., compares them.

        I guess it will help all of you if the 335i gets some interior options and a sport package. Maybe an is model to make it more clear for those who don't seem to get it.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Remonster Click here to enlarge
        The performance levels of the cars is irrelevant
        If this was true the 2.0T would be an M3 rival. The performance level and position in the lineup are obviously the main factors.
      1. Remonster's Avatar
        Remonster -
        The key thing I'm focusing on is the handling, an S4 has upgraded bushings, control arms, sway bars, etc. to change the way it feels from behind the wheel compared to an A4 and RS4. All I'm saying is in my eyes BMW doesn't have a mid-tier car at all. They just have the 3 series and then the M3.

        Just because there is no direct rival doesn't mean the closest thing becomes to rival, Porsche hasn't made a 991 Turbo yet but that doesn't make the Carrera 4S the GT-Rs rival does it?

        And performance numbers REALLY don't matter. At all. If they did, the Mustang Boss would be an M3 competitor (I drove one the other week...what a sack of $#@!). I remember when I had my E90 (which had Eibach suspension and a bunch of other minor mods) and another car in the family was a CLK 320 which was completely stock. That Benz had sticky Michelin tires on it and I had the standard runflat Bridgestones on my 328i. The CLK was much faster through twisty stuff, I did timed runs on this abandoned stretch of road near me and it would always be 3-4 seconds faster than my BMW even though its handling was actually awful. Handling is not a quantifiable thing, the faster car is not necessarily the one that handles better. Just because the Benz had stickier tires and could carry more speed didn't change anything.

        My point being this: just because the performance levels of the 335i and S4 are similar doesn't necessarily make them similar cars. When the M335i comes out and it has better steering, control arms, bushings and all the other important stuff to actually make it half of an M car (according to an interview I saw an M3 has 80% of its parts changed vs a 3 series and the M335i will have 30% of its parts changed) then we will finally have an S4/S5 competitor but until then the S4 sits alone in the marketplace.
      1. Sorena's Avatar
        Sorena -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        The S5 clearly is positioned closer to the 335i than the M3, duh.
        By your logic, since IL has compared these two cars then they are rivals. Don't duh; I don't say they are rivals, S5 is as much M3's rival as S4 is 335i's. In other words, they are not rivals.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        The B6 and B7 S4's had V8's and were compared to the 335i, I have no idea what you are talking about.
        335i didn't even exist in B6 days. And B7 S4 was compared to NOTHING from BMW at least not by people who are blessed by brain. Audi had A4 3.2 which was the 330i and later 335i's rival.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I guess it will help all of you if the 335i gets some interior options and a sport package. Maybe an is model to make it more clear for those who don't seem to get it.
        Look at post #33.

        and 335is had some handling improvements too over the normal 335i. Just like the S4. M335i will be S4's rival, till then S4 has no rival from BMW though 335i is the closest thing to S4 that BMW offers.
      1. 1cleanAMG's Avatar
        1cleanAMG -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        By your logic, since IL has compared these two cars then they are rivals. Don't duh; I don't say they are rivals, S5 is as much M3's rival as S4 is 335i's. In other words, they are not rivals.



        335i didn't even exist in B6 days. And B7 S4 was compared to NOTHING from BMW at least not by people who are blessed by brain. Audi had A4 3.2 which was the 330i and later 335i's rival.



        Look at post #33.

        and 335is had some handling improvements too over the normal 335i. Just like the S4. M335i will be S4's rival, till then S4 has no rival from BMW though 335i is the closest thing to S4 that BMW offers.

        Sticky gets OWNED again
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Remonster Click here to enlarge
        The key thing I'm focusing on is the handling, an S4 has upgraded bushings, control arms, sway bars, etc. to change the way it feels from behind the wheel compared to an A4 and RS4. All I'm saying is in my eyes BMW doesn't have a mid-tier car at all. They just have the 3 series and then the M3.
        That's fine but BMW does have a mid-tier car and it's called the 335.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Remonster Click here to enlarge
        My point being this: just because the performance levels of the 335i and S4 are similar doesn't necessarily make them similar cars
        They are incredibly similar cars. They are German sports sedans positioned in the same segment. I certainly hope they have some differences but they are the exact same type of cars positioned against each other. Audi should be commended for having a sportier offering as in this area it was traditionally BMW who had the sportier car.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        By your logic, since IL has compared these two cars then they are rivals. Don't duh; I don't say they are rivals, S5 is as much M3's rival as S4 is 335i's. In other words, they are not rivals.
        No, my logic is based on the specs, model lineup, and what is the natural rival. It's idiotic this is even being debated. The fact dozens of comparison tests put these two against each other just reinforces my point.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        335i didn't even exist in B6 days. And B7 S4 was compared to NOTHING from BMW at least not by people who are blessed by brain. Audi had A4 3.2 which was the 330i and later 335i's rival.
        Actually the B6 S4 was produced up to the 2005 model year which is the same model year of the 335i debut. The B7 later used the same motor so, uh, sorry.

        The 3.0 in the B6 was positioned against the 330i not the 335i. In the B7 the 3.2 was positioned against the 328i. With the 3.2 being eliminated as it was unnecessary and underpowered the 2.0T stepped up which obviously is now the 328i rival.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        and 335is had some handling improvements too over the normal 335i. Just like the S4. M335i will be S4's rival, till then S4 has no rival from BMW though 335i is the closest thing to S4 that BMW offers.
        Whatever they call it will still be based on the 335i. Logically making the 335i the rival with sport suspension or without. Nothing changes, point proven which was ridiculous to begin with.
      1. Sorena's Avatar
        Sorena -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        No, my logic is based on the specs, model lineup, and what is the natural rival. It's idiotic this is even being debated. The fact dozens of comparison tests put these two against each other just reinforces my point.
        There are dozens of M5 vs GT-R comparisons out there. Does that make these two cars rivals?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Actually the B6 S4 was produced up to the 2005 model year which is the same model year of the 335i debut. The B7 later used the same motor so, uh, sorry.
        Don't be sorry, The 335i came in very late 2006. The first cars came to customers in September 2006. At that time B6 S4 was debuted so no, B6 S4 was never in a comparison against 335i since there was a newer S4 out there.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        In the B7 the 3.2 was positioned against the 328i. With the 3.2 being eliminated as it was unnecessary and underpowered the 2.0T stepped up which obviously is now the 328i rival.
        What? No. A4 3.2 was the top range model. It was 330i's direct rival and there are several comparisons including these two cars. Then 335i came. So A4 3.2 got some HP bump in order to close the gap, but it wasn't enough.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        point proven
        I don't see how exactly. You are the one bringing ridiculous claims. You don't like BMW anymore, that's fine but let's stick with the facts.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        There are dozens of M5 vs GT-R comparisons out there. Does that make these two cars rivals?
        There aren't dozens.

        Secondly, are the M5 and GT-R the same type of vehicle? Aren't the A4 and 3 Series natural rivals? Well, what is an S4 and what is a 335?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        Don't be sorry, The 335i came in very late 2006. The first cars came to customers in September 2006. At that time B6 S4 was debuted so no, B6 S4 was never in a comparison against 335i since there was a newer S4 out there.
        When the 335i came out the S4 was using a V8. The B6 had come to an end but the B7 was just the same thing with a different face. B6/B7 S4's were compared to the 335i whether you like it or not. Do a google search if you need to.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        What? No. A4 3.2 was the top range model. It was 330i's direct rival and there are several comparisons including these two cars. Then 335i came. So A4 3.2 got some HP bump in order to close the gap, but it wasn't enough.
        The RS4 was the top model so I have no idea what you are talking about. The 3.2 and the 330 and later what became the 328 due to BMW renaming it with the introduction of the 335i was the 3.2's rival. The 3.2 was never aimed at the 335i.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        I don't see how exactly. You are the one bringing ridiculous claims. You don't like BMW anymore, that's fine but let's stick with the facts.
        Fact is the S4 and 335i are competitors. They would be the exact two cars cross shopped in the German mid-range sport sedan class. I don't know what to tell you, every publication in the world gets it.

        What is the S4 competition? It's the 335i, it is the only logical conclusion. There is no debate. They are so similar this is absurd.