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    • Car and Driver compares the 2013 F10 M5, 2013 C7 Audi S6, and 2013 W212 E63 AMG and picks the S6?

      This one has us scratching our heads. How in the world can the Audi S6 be better than the new M5 or E63 AMG? What does that say about the upcoming RS6, this is already game over? Maybe it is. The M5 finished in last place. The M5 historically being a car that was untouchable and simply the best of the best. BMW falling this far is a statement in of itself is a major publication can seriously pick a car as over-matched on paper as the Audi S6 over it.

      Car and Driver said the M5 had dull steering and was unsatisfying. Historically, if one had to pick which car out of these three these comments would be applied to fingers would point to the Audi. Times sure have changed and it is rather sad to see a car like the M5 fall this far. Traditional BMW strengths are the fun factor and steering feel. It is supposed to be the most involving. What has happened?

      The E63 finishes in second place. Praise for its steering, engine sound, and torque are all given. Yes, the Benz has better feedback and communication than the M5. Its motor also does not need to fake its engine sound. The E63 was referred to as robotic but also entertaining which is somewhat of a conflict.

      This brings us to the winner, the Audi S6. On paper it is easily beaten by the E63 and M5. This is the least powerful car in the group by a fairly wide margin with 420 horses compared to the M5's 560 and the E63's 518. Car and Driver said the power difference simply didn't matter and it is somewhat apparent in the 1/4 mile times. The S6 manages a 12.1@115 compared to the M5's 11.9@123 and the E63's 12.0@124. The power disparity shows in the traps but the Audi's Quattro helps it run door to door with the other two in the 1/4 mile. The RS6 is going to mop the floor up with them as we expect it to run mid 11's stock.

      The S6 is also slightly lighter than the M5 despite having Quattro. This would have been unheard of just a generation ago.

      The Audi is said to be the most complete car inside and out. It feels more special inside. It has more personality. This is a major sign that times are changing as Audi and Mercedes are getting better and BMW has fallen off. A shame really, but congratulations to Audi. We eagerly anticipate the RS6.
























      This article was originally published in forum thread: Audi S6 vs MB E63 vs BMW M5 by C&D started by Sorena View original post
      Comments 29 Comments
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Blitz535i Click here to enlarge
        Anybody notice the acceleration #'s on the Audi?? 0-60 in 4.1 and the quarter mile at 12.1@115. For comparison sake a Corvette Grand Sport does the same at about 4.3 and 12.6@115. I realize the Audi is all wheel drive and puts the power down better, but it also weighs 900 or so pounds more than the Corvette while making less HP and torque. Those are darn impressive times for a large four door sedan with only 420 HP.
        Quality trans can make the difference. I mean, both these cars are equally modded (tune + exhaust) and look at the difference the DCT makes (fast forward to 1:30)


        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Remonster Click here to enlarge
        I spent two hours at the Audi dealer today trying out a couple of S cars and I was highly impressed. Audi has stepped their game up in a very big way, I am actually running the numbers on an S4 lease to replace my 135i, that's how much I loved it. These recent reviews aren't joking about Audi's improved steering, it's very detailed while being light and unobtrusive during normal driving and the Recaro-made seats are miles ahead of anything BMW puts in its cars (M cars aside, the M seats are just as good) but the number one thing I liked about the S4 and S5 in particular is how much lower in them you sit compared to a 3 series, I got back into my car (with the seat all the way down) after my test drive and felt like I was sitting on top of a horse.
        Strictly looking at the engine performance, the E92 335 vs the B8 s/c S4, they're equal. But the handling is significantly better on the S4 (unless we're talking 335is), which only makes sense since the S4 used to be the M3s competition. It'll be much more interesting (and a fair comparison) to see how the new F-Gen M Sport Coupe stacks up against the B8 S4/S5.
      1. Remonster's Avatar
        Remonster -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        Strictly looking at the engine performance, the E92 335 vs the B8 s/c S4, they're equal. But the handling is significantly better on the S4 (unless we're talking 335is), which only makes sense since the S4 used to be the M3s competition. It'll be much more interesting (and a fair comparison) to see how the new F-Gen M Sport Coupe stacks up against the B8 S4/S5.
        Agreed, the S4 is positioned between the 335i and M3 and it shows in the handling, BMW has always left a huge gap between its M and non-M cars when it comes to suspension set up and, probably most critically, the suspension bushings and control arms. Also, M cars have a ton of aluminum in their suspension which pays dividends in unsprung weight. Audi has always gone for a three-tiered approach which BMW is trying to emulate with their upcoming M Performance line of cars. The M335i and M435i should be good competition for the S4/S5 especially if BMW does what I think it's about to do with its N55 replacement. I don't have any insider information, but look at their new inline 3 (178hp and 199lb/ft) and I think we can safely expect at least 350hp and 350lb/ft from the new inline 6, if not more.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Remonster Click here to enlarge
        Agreed, the S4 is positioned between the 335i and M3 and it shows in the handling,
        The S4 is positioned against the 335i. It doesn't change position because the 335i handling is weak compared to the M3. So if BMW improved the 335's handling the S4 market position would change? Doesn't make sense, 335i and S4 are aimed directly and positioned directly at each other. BMW just needs to improve the 335 which is all an M335i really is going to be, the same thing with upgraded suspensions components that should be standard.
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        +1, the E46 M3 was directly put against the B6 Audi S4 (a 4.2 V8) + MB C32 AMG (s/c v6). Then the B7 Audi RS4 came out & was pitted against the E9x M3 + C63 AMG. Instead of dropping the S4 from the model lineup, Audi kept the 4.2L v8 from the B6. Anyone with 1/2 a brain will acknowledge that in a straight line, the N54 335 > E46 M3. BUT the minute you introduced turns & asked about handling the tables turned. SO it's really no surprise that a car that was ORIGINALLY designed to compete with the M3 outhandled the 335 Coupe.

        Now that BMW is slapping an M sticker & unfortunately copying Audi's setup (base model --> slightly more powerful, much better handling version --> top tier version), there will be the normal 3-series, the 3-series M & then the M3.

        Honestly, BMW should just stick with the M Package option on non-Ms & then the M.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        Anyone with 1/2 a brain will acknowledge that in a straight line, the N54 335 > E46 M3. BUT the minute you introduced turns & asked about handling the tables turned.
        Huh? In stock form it's basically a wash and in modded form the E46 M3 puts out way more power. So what are you talking about?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        +1, the E46 M3 was directly put against the B6 Audi S4 (a 4.2 V8) + MB C32 AMG (s/c v6). Then the B7 Audi RS4 came out & was pitted against the E9x M3 + C63 AMG. Instead of dropping the S4 from the model lineup, Audi kept the 4.2L v8 from the B6.
        Things aren't supposed to line up perfectly. Audi had the B5 S4 and the B5 RS4 so the argument can be made BMW had no answer for the RS4. Although that was a wagon and then BMW had the E46 M3 CSL. It's ok for companies to not follow a rigid guideline and make different products.
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Huh? In stock form it's basically a wash and in modded form the E46 M3 puts out way more power. So what are you talking about?
        Word, I forget that the 335 didn't come with the tune from the showroom (in which case it'd best a stock S54).

        Like I said, just very disappointed with BMW slapping the M badge on everything.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        Word, I forget that the 335 didn't come with the tune from the showroom (in which case it'd best a stock S54).

        Like I said, just very disappointed with BMW slapping the M badge on everything.
        N54 owners often do that, no sweat.

        Yes, I'm disappointed as well.
      1. Remonster's Avatar
        Remonster -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        The S4 is positioned against the 335i. It doesn't change position because the 335i handling is weak compared to the M3. So if BMW improved the 335's handling the S4 market position would change? Doesn't make sense, 335i and S4 are aimed directly and positioned directly at each other. BMW just needs to improve the 335 which is all an M335i really is going to be, the same thing with upgraded suspensions components that should be standard.
        I remember we had this argument before and I realized I was wording my argument poorly. I am criticizing BMW for making the 335i too soft to compete with the S4 and am hopeful that the upcoming M335i will rectify the situation. I absolutely agree that the current 335i is a weak competitor to the S4, it's just a lucky thing that Audi charges so much for the S4 (lease rates are HIGHER than an E92 M3 hahaha). It's about time BMW makes the 335i into more than a 328i with 2 more cylinders so I think we are in agreement.
      1. bigdnno98's Avatar
        bigdnno98 -
        I test drove an E63 last month. WOW what an amazing car. I like Audi's looks but have never been impressed with their performance. Sure they have the best AWD platform around but for some reason the cars still oversteer. I've never driven an M5 but my buddy has the V10 M5. It sounds like pure sex and is pretty fast with just a tune and exhaust. If the dealer would have given me what I wanted for my 335i I would be in an E63 right now. In fact, I even posted on the MB forum, talk me into an E63 LOL. and they did. I test drove a C63 and an e92 M3 this summer the same day, back to back drives actually and LOVED the C63. Didn't really care for the M3. AMG is really doing great things with those cars and those engines. I know another guy that has a 2011 S4 and he loves it but he doesn't like it when he gets smashed by my 335i LOL. To me Audis are just too expensive. If a S4 is a direct competitor to a 335i why does it cost $10k more? Same with the RS3? It is a direct competitor to the new M135i? But lost in the competition and costs $10k more. IDK, give me a BMW or MB over an Audi any day (if I'm paying for it, if it's free sure I'll take it LOL)