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    • Stock dual clutch E92 M3 takes on a stock E92 6-speed M3

      This is a debate that ranges all the time on the forums. What is faster, DCT or manual? Well, the dual clutch simply does shift faster and we see time and time again that the manual can not match it. This is a constant on every platform with a dual clutch and manual option (Porsche PDK versus manual direct comparison was posted earlier this year). The more shifts involved the bigger the advantage a dual clutch will have.

      On the M3 the DCT is geared much tighter in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gears. The manual is geared better for the top end as it can stay in third longer (up to 113 miles per hour) than the dual clutch which has to shift to fourth much earlier. That is why you see the manual creep up in third gear in the video below but it still can not overcome the DCT shift speed advantage despite having lower drivetrain losses.



      This article was originally published in forum thread: DCT M3 VS 6 speed manual M3 started by LostMarine View original post
      Comments 121 Comments
      1. M3GTtt's Avatar
        M3GTtt -
        IF manual is faster than the Double-Clutch or even a race sequential or any computer controlled fast shifting box considering power loss and weight, HOW COME NO true race-car (F1, F3, GP2, F3000, Indy, WRC, WTCC, DTM) has a manual box?

        Do you actually believe that an F1 car or Indy, where teams are fighting for .01 of a second pr lap would be Manual if that system would be faster than a computer controlled box?

        I know that an M-DTC equiped M-car (or a Porsche PDK) is not an F1 car, but in the Bugatti Veyron they even installed a double clutch, and the amazing R35GTR, which is considered to be a FAST CAR, do you actually believe that Nissan intentionally wanted to produce a slower GTR than possible?

        Personally I would preferr a manual, because I like to heal/toe my cars, but your argument fails even on the numbers.

        ANY Double clutch car from any manufacturer has better numbers than the manual version. Look at the Porsche 997 Turbo for example.
      1. M3GTtt's Avatar
        M3GTtt -
        And on the weight of the M-DTC. Why not use actual numbers.. Here is the official Getrag dry weight of 79kg
        http://www.getrag.de/en/252

        That is a dry weight of 174lbs, are you actually tryging to convince yourself that the Getrag Manual box weighs 74lbs? Usually a 6speed Getrag weighs about 50kg dry, thats 110lbs.. so an actual weight difference of a 64lbs (only).

        Also, I have never seen any tests showing the Manual to be faster, at any speed intervals, except maybe from 0-30mph but that is Launch depended off course.

        Actaully the 0-200 time of the M-DTC is usually about 1 second faster than the 6MT, the 1/4 seems to be less favorable for some reason, probably due to the fact that you seem to be able to streach the 3rd in the manual all the way to the 400 meters, but the M-DTC needs one more gear, that means that in the next 50 meters or so the 6MT needs a new gear and the M-DTC is still pulling.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        DCT's are the fastest I think we all know that.
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3GTtt Click here to enlarge
        IF manual is faster than the Double-Clutch or even a race sequential or any computer controlled fast shifting box considering power loss and weight, HOW COME NO true race-car (F1, F3, GP2, F3000, Indy, WRC, WTCC, DTM) has a manual box?

        Do you actually believe that an F1 car or Indy, where teams are fighting for .01 of a second pr lap would be Manual if that system would be faster than a computer controlled box?

        I know that an M-DTC equiped M-car (or a Porsche PDK) is not an F1 car, but in the Bugatti Veyron they even installed a double clutch, and the amazing R35GTR, which is considered to be a FAST CAR, do you actually believe that Nissan intentionally wanted to produce a slower GTR than possible?

        Personally I would preferr a manual, because I like to heal/toe my cars, but your argument fails even on the numbers.

        ANY Double clutch car from any manufacturer has better numbers than the manual version. Look at the Porsche 997 Turbo for example.
        your comparing a consumer vehicle with a race car? you make me laugh. the EASE of shifting is a benefit for one. you know, controlling the car, that thing you have to do, and paddle shifters let you do that easier..

        but a RACE car doesnt have to make any sacrifices, its all-out. do that in a consumer car and see how people like it.

        BMW is not a company that challenges its flagship. it will not make a dct m3 faster than the manual, it just wont.

        porsche, are we tlaking about porshce or bmw? i dont believe thats real either, but a different company, different product line, different sales strategy and different people. so, naturally doesnt apply here

        also, its a magazine, thoseguys cant drive and purposely show what they want you to see. show me something that was done by real drivers.
      1. M3GTtt's Avatar
        M3GTtt -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
        your comparing a consumer vehicle with a race car? you make me laugh. the EASE of shifting is a benefit for one. you know, controlling the car, that thing you have to do, and paddle shifters let you do that easier..

        but a RACE car doesnt have to make any sacrifices, its all-out. do that in a consumer car and see how people like it.

        BMW is not a company that challenges its flagship. it will not make a dct m3 faster than the manual, it just wont.

        porsche, are we tlaking about porshce or bmw? i dont believe thats real either, but a different company, different product line, different sales strategy and different people. so, naturally doesnt apply here

        also, its a magazine, thoseguys cant drive and purposely show what they want you to see. show me something that was done by real drivers.
        I'm glad I make you laugh, you seem to need some chearing up. Find any true evidence that the manual is faster and I will believe you, the video sure does not show it.

        Actually most racing drivers would prefer a manual for car control rather than the sequential/double clutch system so there you are wrong. Racing drivers rearly like electronics because it takes away the ability control manually a car, the rev-matching on downshifts and when to upset the ballance of the car, transfer weight from one wheel to another to get the car to do exacly what the driver whats the car to do.
        I don't know how many of those guys you know and can ask, but please do if you have the chance to ask any high end professional. Still, the Engineers put in the electronics, because they are faster, even the drivers them selves know that they will be faster.

        But yet to you its all a big conspiracy.. to get the public to buy the double clutch, its not even a BMW in house item, its a Getrag part and BMW would not make ANY additional money doing this, you dear sir are the one making me laugh Click here to enlarge

        But to continue,, Off course I am comparing race cars with street cars. Any technology developed on a race car will find its way sooner or later into a production car if it WORKS and will benefit the production car.
        In a race car (you said it yourself) you do not make any sacrifices, you want the fastest thing available, no matter the cost, and how many of them are manual? Please chime in.

        Any two identical cars off the production line can still be different, one can be faster than the other. Leakdown on new motors can vary 1-3%. After slight use various parts might be in different condition, DSC off/on, tires more worn on one than the other? Is there any chance that there might be a very silght difference in these two particular cars in the video, any mods, different amount of fuel, different weight of passengers, different types of wheels ??(makes a big difference in actual acceleration) which make you feel that the 6MT is in any way faster in general than the M-DTC?

        And what is so different about Porsche double clutch setup??? or you also believe that Porsche is taking their buyers for a ride and lying to them about the PDK being faster? Click here to enlarge

        Comparing the older versions of the SMG setups is an unfair comparison because the early sistem (E36 M3) truly was awfull, the SMG2 was much better, and I wonder also why the closest thing to a race car BMW has made in the last 10 years does not have a manual, was it because BMW decided to make the car slower than it could potentially be??
        E46 M3 CSL has the SMG2 an even slower system than the M-DTC, and you believe that BMW didn't want the CSL to reach its true potential.
        E92 M3 GTS has the M-DTC, why not a manual if its faster?

        Looking at the videos the only time the Manual was faster was when the M-DTC lifted off the throttle, or that's how it looked.

        You are right on one thing, the tests in mags do not always tell the truith, but its usually not due to the magazine people, its for example because BMW (and others) send press cars to be tested, F10M5 being one example, rumered to be close to 600hp...
        Ferrari has done this for year.. But do you honestly believe that BMW would de-tune the MT6 and/or Tune up the M-DTC to make it faster than the manual during testing??? seriously..
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        wtf, it doesnt show it? videos of equal hp cars, head-head, driven the same, and one not pulling the other is not evidence? ok ok, i give up. cany fix stupid i guess
      1. M3GTtt's Avatar
        M3GTtt -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
        wtf, it doesnt show it? videos of equal hp cars, head-head, driven the same, and one not pulling the other is not evidence? ok ok, i give up. cany fix stupid i guess
        You know that the most common way to react when running out of arguments perusing a lost cause is to start the insults. Calling me stupid will not make your case. You want to believe that you know better than the worlds most talented automotive engineers Click here to enlarge good luck with that my friend.
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3GTtt Click here to enlarge
        You know that the most common way to react when running out of arguments perusing a lost cause is to start the insults. Calling me stupid will not make your case. You want to believe that you know better than the worlds most talented automotive engineers Click here to enlarge good luck with that my friend.
        ive had enough arguing with dumb people is all, if your insulted, take it up with your parents, their fault, not mine. I believe i know that the engineers and bean counters have 2 different views, and the bean counters have more sayin the final product. I also believe that NOONE has proven me wrong as the video's show.
      1. ERM324's Avatar
        ERM324 -
        Steve im going to a buddy of mines house today so he can look at something on my car....he has a vt1-535 6 speed...I can line you guys up whenever you want
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ERM324 Click here to enlarge
        Steve im going to a buddy of mines house today so he can look at something on my car....he has a vt1-535 6 speed...I can line you guys up whenever you want
        YES PLEASE!

        Click here to enlarge
      1. M3GTtt's Avatar
        M3GTtt -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
        ive had enough arguing with dumb people is all, if your insulted, take it up with your parents, their fault, not mine. I believe i know that the engineers and bean counters have 2 different views, and the bean counters have more sayin the final product. I also believe that NOONE has proven me wrong as the video's show.
        Again with the insults..

        You base your argument on an amature video of two M3's racing,

        I base my argument on proven technology currently used in high end racing being implemented in commercial cars, proven by numbers many times over not only in BMW's but also by other high end manufacturers.

        Just to clarify, putting anything else than an old school Manual box in a car is the bean-counters worst nightmare, they want things cheap and simple. Thats probably why you only see the double clutch box offered in the "higher" end of the spectrum within any manufacturer.
        A computer controlled gearbox elevates the complexity of a car, making it more expensive to design and manufacture and more prone to failure costing the company regcalls and reputational risks. Bean-counters want simple things, engineers want the best things. You have it all wrong, again.

        And I am still the stupid one...
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        How many manual m3's were sold compared to dct? That's a large market. M3 fans prefer manual. SALES is what bean counters go for. SALES that won't be lost because BMW didn't negate the dct advantage for manual people
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
        How many manual m3's were sold compared to dct? That's a large market. M3 fans prefer manual. SALES is what bean counters go for. SALES that won't be lost because BMW didn't negate the dct advantage for manual people
        I would like to see the manual / dct breakdown. On the E60 M5 we know the manual was basically 1 out of 10 cars.
      1. M3GTtt's Avatar
        M3GTtt -
        And the point would be?

        Pure speculation but probably more M-DTC's than manual would be my bet, but that would be the natural choice for 90% of the people because its faster and also easy to drive fast, but then also good for comfort driving (auto mode).
        The hardcore car nut would probably get the manual because he drives heal/toe style and does not mind the slower acceleration. That would also explain the 1/10 Sticky predicted with the E60M5.

        Not sure BMW makes any more money on the M-DTC than the manual, might even be less because of service issues with the complexity factor. .

        But you didn't comment on why BMW made the E46CSL with the SMG3 and the E92GTS with the M-DTC.. and NOT a manual box, do you honestly believe tha pt BMW didn't want those cars to reach their actual maximum performance?
      1. M3GTtt's Avatar
        M3GTtt -
        E46CSL was SMG2 not 3, sorry about that, but it makes it even more interesting,,
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3GTtt Click here to enlarge
        Not sure BMW makes any more money on the M-DTC than the manual, might even be less because of service issues with the complexity factor. .
        The only reason the DCT makes more financial sense is when they are selling more of them. The actual trans is pretty expensive but it is volume.
      1. M3GTtt's Avatar
        M3GTtt -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        The only reason the DCT makes more financial sense is when they are selling more of them. The actual trans is pretty expensive but it is volume.
        That is true, the AUTO function is appealing to many, as well as having a faster car.

        Still waiting for LostMarine to answer why the two best BMW's in the modern era, the CSL and the GTS are not Manual.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        They aren't manual because they were designed with the best track laptimes in mind.
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3GTtt Click here to enlarge
        That is true, the AUTO function is appealing to many, as well as having a faster car.

        Still waiting for LostMarine to answer why the two best BMW's in the modern era, the CSL and the GTS are not Manual.
        because it allows you to focus on handling the car better, as every automatic does. not because there is a speed advantage
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
        because it allows you to focus on handling the car better, as every automatic does. not because there is a speed advantage
        The GTS has a speed advantage. The CSL also as the SMGII shifted faster than a driver could with a manual.