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    • Stock dual clutch E92 M3 takes on a stock E92 6-speed M3

      This is a debate that ranges all the time on the forums. What is faster, DCT or manual? Well, the dual clutch simply does shift faster and we see time and time again that the manual can not match it. This is a constant on every platform with a dual clutch and manual option (Porsche PDK versus manual direct comparison was posted earlier this year). The more shifts involved the bigger the advantage a dual clutch will have.

      On the M3 the DCT is geared much tighter in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gears. The manual is geared better for the top end as it can stay in third longer (up to 113 miles per hour) than the dual clutch which has to shift to fourth much earlier. That is why you see the manual creep up in third gear in the video below but it still can not overcome the DCT shift speed advantage despite having lower drivetrain losses.




      This article was originally published in forum thread: DCT M3 VS 6 speed manual M3 started by LostMarine View original post
      Comments 121 Comments
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by onurleft Click here to enlarge
        It's in Road and Track ultimate drift car and was replicated by another very reputable tester (Motor Trend maybe?).

        The cars can go 114+ they should be able to best that time, it's just a matter of getting the right conditions/driver. The DCT cars, of course just hasn't had the right launch yet like the 6spd and the extra shift hurts it. I'd like to see a stock E92 M3 DCT with DR's and line lock. Should be really promising
        Motortrend uses vbox, which noone accepts. If it wasn't done at a track, 1/4 mil times are invalid.
        You also didn't state if 100% stock, a drift car won't be stock
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by onurleft Click here to enlarge
        Why is it not posted on your own list?
        It is:

        12.19 @ 115.17 MPH 60' 1.95 (Sticky) E92 M3 DCT, Bolt ons, 93 octane, DR's
      1. onurleft's Avatar
        onurleft -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        It is:

        [/COLOR]
        That's with modifications.

        Here's one of the tests. Road and Track actually pulled a 12.5@114.8 on a totally stock car with 19" wheels.

        http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/co..._bmw_m3_page_8

        I can't find the link with the 12.3 atm but regardless they are more reputable than any one person and use GPS and VBox to verify their results. Nobody has the creditability of these sources, period.
        If it's done off of a prepped surface it's going to work against it's time anyhow
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by onurleft Click here to enlarge
        That's with modifications.

        Here's one of the tests. Road and Track actually pulled a 12.5@114.8 on a totally stock car with 19" wheels.

        http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/co..._bmw_m3_page_8

        I can't find the link with the 12.3 atm but regardless they are more reputable than any one person and use GPS and VBox to verify their results. Nobody has the creditability of these sources, period.
        If it's done off of a prepped surface it's going to work against it's time anyhow
        You cannot use vbox times! It is inaccurate and subject to manipulation and slopes. Your argument is unanimously rendered invalid
      1. onurleft's Avatar
        onurleft -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
        You cannot use vbox times! It is inaccurate and subject to manipulation and slopes. Your argument is unanimously rendered invalid
        You are cOmpletely delusion to refute the most reputable of sources. GPS, VBox, pro drivers like Randy Pobst and their testing is on tracks. Simply rejecting a source thats been established for 60+ years is just humorous in your nut swing attempt to prove your bias. Let's just refute every Nurburgring time because some tool wants it on something other than a Hot Lap. SportAuto, MotorTrend, it's all just hearsay right? They don't use real equipment..Or how about you wake up and smell the coffee? The car traps 114+, that's good enough for 11s and the DCT launch control is garbage without some type of OEM change. That's not the case when you have full control, like these 6 speed cars
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        So, vbox has been out for 60+ years? Wow, never knew that
        Oh wait, it hasn't been out 60 years? Did they post the graph? No, so what was the slope/decline of the run? Oh you don't know!? That's why those times are invalid. That's why companies like them get paid to review the cars

        i about you come back to reality. Did they change tires? Yup, so again, not stock. If changing tires is stock, so is a replacement air filter, and then I have the stock mph record at 115.

        So.. how's that taste?

        Also, your inability to accept reality is amusing. My "bias" is actually against dct being an advantage if you search. But facts are facts and the hard facts state that dct has all the current records.
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by onurleft Click here to enlarge
        i..I hate to see the in-consistanceys when doing year to year comparisons. Car and Driver sure does make themselves look like bafoons referencing/comparing year to year times but lacking any mention, or enough mention of weather conditions or driver differences.

        So which is it? Are they the almighty and unquestionable, or do they make themaelves look like bafoons by lacking pertinent data?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by onurleft Click here to enlarge
        Just wondering,

        Does the v-box correct for hills?
        And in case you didn't know, even after stating many times, no, vbox does not correct for anything, hence 1/4 mile times are invalid
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by onurleft Click here to enlarge
        Here's one of the tests. Road and Track actually pulled a 12.5@114.8 on a totally stock car with 19" wheels.
        I remember this of course but that was in like 40 degree German winter weather. Plus, that is a magazine time not the same as a slip.
      1. M&M's Avatar
        M&M -
        LM Vbox is used by pretty much all the magazines in Europe, Australia, & I think even most of the US magazines. The mags have a drag strip or test track & run all the cars starting from the same start line with the same protocol. So in that case their database of runs using the Vbox is pretty much acceptable I think. Of course ambients will differ.
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M&M Click here to enlarge
        LM Vbox is used by pretty much all the magazines in Europe, Australia, & I think even most of the US magazines. The mags have a drag strip or test track & run all the cars starting from the same start line with the same protocol. So in that case their database of runs using the Vbox is pretty much acceptable I think. Of course ambients will differ.
        Awesome, so, if I go run a 10 sec 1/4 mile on the vbox, n/a, it counts?
      1. M&M's Avatar
        M&M -
        No you have to verify the slope, etc. I ran at a track today. Had the vbox in the car for all runs. times were identical, speeds almost indentical.
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M&M Click here to enlarge
        No you have to verify the slope, etc. I ran at a track today. Had the vbox in the car for all runs. times were identical, speeds almost indentical.
        Almost identical is not identical, obviously. Did m&t verify their slope,no. Is every track verified? No. But every track is the exact same start, finish. And prints a 3rd party unbiased slip that is more accurate. It's not accepted as a record
      1. M&M's Avatar
        M&M -
        I'm pretty sure they use some drag strip to their runs.
      1. lughed's Avatar
        lughed -
        Looks to me like the DCT lost 3 of 5. The last run told a good story tho.
      1. mm28's Avatar
        mm28 -
        magazines get pay to do reviews and articals, its a huge part of car makers' PR, off-line ad spend.
        even if manufactures dont need artical coverages, they would still routinely send invitations to major publishers to some of the most beautiful places in the world to "drive" their cars for a few days.... all expenses covered of course.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mm28 Click here to enlarge
        magazines get pay to do reviews and articals, its a huge part of car makers' PR, off-line ad spend.
        even if manufactures dont need artical coverages, they would still routinely send invitations to major publishers to some of the most beautiful places in the world to "drive" their cars for a few days.... all expenses covered of course.
        I need to get in on some of this.
      1. mm28's Avatar
        mm28 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I need to get in on some of this.
        then you would need something more influential than the current german boost network.
        keep up the good work.Click here to enlarge
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mm28 Click here to enlarge
        then you would need something more influential than the current german boost network.
        keep up the good work.Click here to enlarge
        True, maybe I will get there. Actually, when I get there, you aren't invited now. So there :p
      1. Autobahn335i's Avatar
        Autobahn335i -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mm28 Click here to enlarge
        magazines get pay to do reviews and articals, its a huge part of car makers' PR, off-line ad spend.
        even if manufactures dont need artical coverages, they would still routinely send invitations to major publishers to some of the most beautiful places in the world to "drive" their cars for a few days.... all expenses covered of course.
        Yep those "first impression" reviews aren't indepth though for the most part. Serious mags put the cars through the real tests later. And if a review includes actual performance figures, it would make no sense to obtain those figs on an "extra inclined" or otherwise special track. What would be the point in showcasing performance results when they will differ from all other tests? Credibility of such a magazine would be zero.
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3GTtt Click here to enlarge
        Are people seriously debating which is faster, a manual car or a double clutch?? If, in an unraelistic world, there would be a driver that would always shift 100% (right time, and fast) he would still not beat the double clutch.
        Always strange how the internet experts think they know better than the engineers, this case BMW M Gmbh.

        And why would there be measurable more drivetrain loss in a M-DTC than the Manual?
        shift speed is faster. your assuming ll else is equal
        Hp advantage to MT, weight advantage to MT, gearing advantage to MT= negating the shift speed advantage given a competent MT pilot