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    • Vishnu Tuning E92 335i with FFTEC N54 single turbo hardware + raised boost finally runs a 10 second 1/4 mile pass, underwhelming?

      Vishnu Tuning finally managed to eek out a 10 second pass in their single turbo E92 335i that they were once touting would be in the 9's. After multiple unsuccessful attempts (with driver errors) from Vishnu owner Shiv Pathak he was able to get a high 10 second slip by raising the boost according to his data log and shifting cleanly. Details are scarce as Vishnu did not provide information on the youtube video upload and there also is no exterior view to show the slip actually correlates to the run shown in the video.

      We will give the benefit of the doubt here but with all secrecy and the multiple attempts to get to this point the performance is simply underwhelming for the time and money investment. The car is said to have run 10.8@131. It recently was dyno'd at 627 wheel horsepower by Insideline so these horses are not translating well to the ground. This single turbo offers considerable lag and the top end pull for the sacrifice simply is not there especially compared to existing solutions such as the Rob Beck twin turbo upgrade which offers far greater spool and performance only a few miles per off through the traps but with far greater driveability.

      The previous record was 11.10@127.21 with 19 psi of boost on the RB turbos. These turbos are a much more affordable option that also currently is available. Vishnu claims 23.5 psi of boost for this 10.8@131 mph run. Is it worth the minor top end benefit for the estimated $8500+ plus install? We do not think so and considering the way Vishnu hyped this the results are very underwhelming. The low end torque sacrifice is not being justified with a large top end gain.

      We wish Vishnu luck in the future but for now this is still an experiment and work in progress that is tough to buy both figuratively and literally. There are more affordable options that work better for daily driven N54 vehicles that offer 97% of the performance in practice (as in not just a dyno queen) with less compromises. Not to mention for users to repeat what Vishnu has done here with their own single turbo it will likely be far more difficult as they will not have the option of risking their engine with higher boost and timing advances simply to try to eek out a tenth to squeeze past what already exists and get into the 10's. It may be a record, but it certainly is not impressive considering where the bar was already set with far less horsepower and much more affordable tuning and hardware options.







      This article was originally published in forum thread: Vishnu/FFTEC 10.822 1/4 mile RECORD! started by onesuperboi View original post
      Comments 682 Comments
      1. enrita's Avatar
        enrita -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
        FBIS's Vishnu/FFTEC Review: Responding to some comments

        Hi guys,
        Former Boosted IS made it pretty clear that he does not want to deal with any trolls/haters in his very well-written and thorough review thread. I'm a bit more tolerant of them so I've started this thread to address some of their comments Click here to enlarge At the very least, I think this may help answer some general questions about our single turbo conversion as well as give some insight as to how it works and why it is configured the way it is. Many of you will not find any of this news. But some may find answers to these following comments interesting. So here goes....

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
        The review itself seems fair enough. Indicated issues he had and got the car on a dyno to back up the results Vishnu provided him. The boost curve looks pretty crappy though. Jagged edges all over the place with an independent datalog which looks smoother due to the scaling of the software.

        It appears Vishnu's dyno reads about 20 whp high, which backs up what I suspected.

        themyst has probably forgotten that the boost reading now comes from an add-on 3.5bar MAP sensor that is referenced from the intake manifold at a point upstream from a single intake runner (well downstream of the throttle body). This means that one will naturally get pressure pulsations in that column of air as the intake valves open and close when running higher boost pressures. As most have seen, the N54 doesn't have much of a common plenum to dampen out these individual cylinder pulsations. In fact, the only place you will not see pressure pulsations is when reading pressure on the other side of the throttle body (in the charge pipe). This is where the stock MAP sensor gets it signal from and, as a result, boost logs are generally smooth.

        If there is any doubt as to the nature of these boost log pulsations, I encourage anyone to just look at the power curve from the dyno. I don't think there has ever been a smoother torque curve ever posted by a N54. The boost control on the Procede is pretty effective and I'd put it head and shoulders above anything else I've seen/tested. Running 25psi on a high compression motor is no small task and the results speak for themselves.

        Lastly, themyst fails to realize that the FBIS's baseline stock dyno result was only 262whp, which is a good 10-20whp lower than the vast majority of stock baselines seen from other Dynojets. So to claim that "our" dyno reads high is disingenuous. It's more fair to suggest that the dyno that FBIS tested at reads low. Also, it's worth mentioning that we don't have our own dynojet (we have an AWD Mustang Dyno). Instead, we use 2 different independently owned Dynojets (The Mustang Ranch in Santa Clara, CA and DNR Motorsports in Hayward, CA). They both read identically and provide numbers within 1% of each other. Stock N54s put down 275-280whp on both.

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
        Of course his dyno reads 20whp high and that 450whp run on E85/stock turbo is a ~430whp But that's besides the point of this thread..

        Dzenno should have a better understanding of dyno variance given that he has suddenly become a tuner. And have no doubt, any stock turbo car that runs 11.3x 1/4 mile times is making 450whp. Just as the dyno suggests. He should be aware that our stock turbo FBO cars are quicker at the track than this Protuned FBO car with RB turbos, but that is besides the point of this thread as well.

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
        Wish i could see fuel pressures low and high, IPW/IDC to see where the fuel system is at. Hes almost maxed out his fuel trims near redline.

        Trims climb up to ~20% at the very end of the RPM band. Through most of the powerband, trims are negative to 0%. To say that fuel trims are maxed out near redline suggests a lack of understanding or just not knowing how to read a log (or FBIS's words).

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
        Eh, yes and no. Fluctuations in environmental factors could call for more fuel, but probably not enough to completely max fuel trims. Shiv also said he intends on getting one putting down similar numbers on E85, so i guess he has a plan for more headroom. The more actual boost the DME sees, the higher his fuel ceiling goes in terms of procede smoke and mirrors fueling.

        Fluctuations in environmental factors effect boost targeting and AFR targets with the goal of keeping trims consistent. You will find that the colder the temp get, the lower the Procede's boost target. We do a very effective job of operating well within the fuel system limits, thank you very much. Not sure what "procede smoke and mirrors fuelings" are being referred to. I suggest that lulz_m3 spends more time understanding the subject matter and less tossing around misinformed conclusions.

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by enrita Click here to enlarge
        You need the base flash to run high boost on the single. Without you are stuck with a 15-16 psi map

        Not quite. We made 634whp with the stock DME (Procede only). This was at 21-22psi peak.

        And regarding our use of 4 1.0mm nozzles in our single turbo methanol injection system:
        Quote:
        Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
        Your seriously trying to pawn that off as a reason? 4 meth nozzles, that's twice a s many as anyone else, (except for n20 guys-but they admit to using it for fuel..) 4 nozzles to cool a charge, that is cooler to begin with, than smaller turbos, where 1 has been shown to provide ample cooling....interesting theory

        The idea behind methanol injection is to spray in proportion to airflow/HP. So for all those people who are spraying 800cc/min in their FBO stock turbo car (420whp), that would be equivalent of spraying 1250cc/min in a 650whp car. Which is quite accurate. Spraying 800cc/min in a 650whp car wouldn't provide suitable knock suppression. Even if we had all the fuel in the world at our disposal with regards to DME mapping, we would still spray that amount of methanol.

        The fuel bandaid argument is pretty silly at the point since we aren't exactly scraping against fuel system limits at these power levels. In fact, we hope to support these power levels running straight e85 before too long.

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
        Compare to most platforms, the amount of meth we run is ridiculous to begin with, so i'm not sure that's a fair statement.

        N54s are able to run more methanol than many other platforms because it runs a closed loop fuel control system under boost. Whereas many (older) platforms run open loop under load which would result in an excessive power-robbing rich-run condition when injecting higher volumes of methanol. Not so with the N54 which only sees benefits with no downsides.

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by EDM92 Click here to enlarge
        I wouldn't want to run a $#@! load of meth and race gas on my daily driver. Many people who own the single say they daily drive them. I would assume they want to daily drive it on pump gas. 450whp on pump gas is pretty slow for $10,000, in my opinion.

        Opinions can be useful. But here is fact: FBIS's car made 550whp on 93oct (no meth):
        Click here to enlarge

        Cheers,
        shiv

        :-)
      1. lulz_m3's Avatar
        lulz_m3 -
        OK, ill do my best to play this game.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@E90POST can suck my balls Click here to enlarge
        Trims climb up to ~20% at the very end of the RPM band. Through most of the powerband, trims are negative to 0%. To say that fuel trims are maxed out near redline suggests a lack of understanding or just not knowing how to read a log (or FBIS's words).
        That was my mistake, but honestly the PROcede logs are absolutely TERRIBLE to read. I really hope (for the sake of your users) your new tuning interface will display logs better, your scaling is terrible. Make sure to post this up on E90, im sure others will agree with me.


        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@E90POST can suck my balls Click here to enlarge
        Fluctuations in environmental factors effect boost targeting and AFR targets with the goal of keeping trims consistent. You will find that the colder the temp get, the lower the Procede's boost target. We do a very effective job of operating well within the fuel system limits, thank you very much. Not sure what "procede smoke and mirrors fuelings" are being referred to. I suggest that lulz_m3 spends more time understanding the subject matter and less tossing around misinformed conclusions.
        I'm very pleased to hear that your PROcede is now targeting load, just like a flash tune. Funny how load targeting flash tunes were discredited by you. You touted the fact that the procede targets a specific boost setpoint to be an advantage, now its not? Funny how things work out...

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@E90POST can suck my balls Click here to enlarge
        N54s are able to run more methanol than many other platforms because it runs a closed loop fuel control system under boost. Whereas many (older) platforms run open loop under load which would result in an excessive power-robbing rich-run condition when injecting higher volumes of methanol. Not so with the N54 which only sees benefits with no downsides.
        This statement is just garbage. Other platforms can be tuned to account for whatever volume of meth flow they need, unless you're talking about just strapping on a meth kit and not tuning for it? If so, thats not what we're really talking about, now is it?
      1. ChuckD05's Avatar
        ChuckD05 -
        Sub'd .... SMH in here, yet I love every second of it... hate and arguments, but civil ones that really do enlighten myself and others about useful things...
      1. bigdnno98's Avatar
        bigdnno98 -
        I've only been in the N54 community for a year and a half and the ST is still very new to the community, I guess I don't understand why an RB25DET can produce 600+ WHP on pump gas but we have to throw 1250cc/min meth at the N54 to hit 600+ HP. Is it because there are so many hardware upgrades for the RB such as cams, headwork, etc? Same with the 2JZ they've been making 600+ HP on pump gas forever. I didn't really notice the large meth community until I spoke with some EVO IX guys a few years ago. Some please elaborate so I can understand this. What is the limitation that the N54 has that the RB25DET and 2JZT doesn't if Shiv says fueling isn't an issue on this engine.
      1. lulz_m3's Avatar
        lulz_m3 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
        I've only been in the N54 community for a year and a half and the ST is still very new to the community, I guess I don't understand why an RB25DET can produce 600+ WHP on pump gas but we have to throw 1250cc/min meth at the N54 to hit 600+ HP. Is it because there are so many hardware upgrades for the RB such as cams, headwork, etc? Same with the 2JZ they've been making 600+ HP on pump gas forever. I didn't really notice the large meth community until I spoke with some EVO IX guys a few years ago. Some please elaborate so I can understand this. What is the limitation that the N54 has that the RB25DET and 2JZT doesn't if Shiv says fueling isn't an issue on this engine.
        Static compression is high on the N54, which requires additional octane to suppress knock from the higher cylinder pressures.

        The difference is that other platforms run a small amount of meth/water, typically no higher than 50% meth, to cool the intake charge and provide more of a safety barrier. On the N54 we have becomes accostumed to using the meth to basically spray high octane fuel, rather than just cooling. The problem with this is poor meth distribution across all cylinders, wet bulb effect on TMAP sensor, and a reliance on an external system to perform your fueling, rather than your cooling only. To REALLY do it the right we, we should be injecting the "octane" needed to support higher HP figures, not spraying it into the intake tube. This is why high HP guys typically run around on pump gas, than switch to a race gas tune once they fill up with some rage gas.
      1. dzenno@PTF's Avatar
        dzenno@PTF -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
        Dzenno should have a better understanding of dyno variance given that he has suddenly become a tuner. And have no doubt, any stock turbo car that runs 11.3x 1/4 mile times is making 450whp. Just as the dyno suggests. He should be aware that our stock turbo FBO cars are quicker at the track than this Protuned FBO car with RB turbos, but that is besides the point of this thread as well.
        Dare I split fact and fiction in this rebuttal? Click here to enlarge Let me give it a shot and it'd be nice Shivo if you responded here so we can have a discussion or call me, you probably still have my number and we can chat it up

        Alright, here we go:

        1) FACT - Your dyno reads higher than most average Dynojets proven by many of your customers including FBIS. Your FBO stock boost cars have dynoed 310whp baseline which is higher than average. I didn't say 450whp was fake, I said its higher by 20whp and people on average shouldn't expect to get 450whp with E85 on your same tune on average with a Dynojet other than your glory one which you seem to prefer. Works great for marketing your Flex fuel kit I bet.

        2) FICTION - "any stock turbo car that runs 11.3x 1/4 mile times is making 450whp (Shiv)" @Terry@BMS ran 11.2 which is still the overall N54 stock turbo record. Funny enough, when your own 6MT Single turbo car, "pro tuned" by yourself on SLICKS and a 3.46 rear end does a "record shattering" 10.8 1/4 mile pass with no less than a 1.5sec 60' you go at length to convince people how it has more instead of showing results. Plenty of 600+whp cars that run low 10s. Also funny that even before running it at the track you claimed you'd just jump over 10s and get into 9s and hardly reached into 10s. All I'm saying is that you're being pretty obnoxious comparing my 6MT car to a 6AT.

        3) MISLEADING - "our stock turbo FBO cars are quicker at the track than this Protuned FBO car with RB turbos (Shiv)" My own personal RB car was NEVER pro tuned by anyone or by me. The run was done last year in November and I didn't have either ATR or ATP yet to touch anything, wish I did. Past 5 months (since the end of March) I've been waiting on my car to be back on the road. You are also comparing 6AT cars to my 6MT again as if you don't know the difference in the 1/4 mile times when it comes to transmissions and ability to get out of the hole quick. At least I was always fair to say that your single turbo had more in it with a 6AT transmission as I know the burdens of racing an N54 with a 6MT down the 1/4 and you do too.

        In terms of the so called pro tune I had. I had a very early experimental alpha race map from Cobb, not my tune of any sort. It ran a mere 5* of timing down low to 10* at redline Click here to enlarge It still managed to pull off 125-126.6mph traps (128mph on the vbox). My ET was 11.4 and none of your 6MT TT cars including your own, stock or RB/ASR or whatever, have ever come close even against this very conservative tune that I had at the time in November last year (9 months ago). Look at the tuning these days how different and more aggressive it is, especially on E85. Once my own custom tune does go on the car and I get to pour that sweetness called E85 in the tank I'm sure we'll talk again or you might go silent lol Until then these comments are laughable at best.

        I am really looking forward to some races between your current stock turbo procede FBO cars against the cars we're tuning. 6MT vs 6MT, 6AT vs 6AT whether its 1/4 mile, roll ons, dynos (on the same dyno same day, not your glory runs).

        Have a rebuttal? Stick to the facts and try to be honest for once. I give you respect a lot more often than you seemingly deserve. Good luck copy/pasting this across other boards on the net. I don't know why it pissed you off when I said your dyno reads 20whp high when you yourself know that its true. Why is that a big deal when we all know there can/is dyno variance. In your case it reads higher so good for you.
      1. enrita's Avatar
        enrita -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge

        I'm very pleased to hear that your PROcede is now targeting load, just like a flash tune. Funny how load targeting flash tunes were discredited by you. You touted the fact that the procede targets a specific boost setpoint to be an advantage, now its not? Funny how things work out...
        Quote:
        Originally Posted by enrita Click here to enlarge
        so you increased load to make the dme push more fuel and the procede keeps boost to stock levels ?

        Shiv: Nope. With the Procede removed (or in valet mode) and boost being coontrolled by the ProcedeFlashed DME, boost levels are stock-like 6-10psi. You only see high boost with the Procede installed.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
        Regarding the use of 4 nozzles:

        The idea behind methanol injection is to spray in proportion to airflow/HP. So for all those people who are spraying 800cc/min in their FBO stock turbo car (420whp), that would be equivalent of spraying 1250cc/min in a 650whp car. Which is quite accurate. Spraying 800cc/min in a 650whp car wouldn't provide suitable knock suppression. Even if we had all the fuel in the world at our disposal with regards to DME mapping, we would still spray that amount of methanol.

        The fuel bandaid argument is pretty silly at the point since we aren't exactly scraping against fuel system limits at these power levels. In fact, we hope to support these power levels running straight e85 before too long.

        And lulz_m3, I'm not sure what I've don to you to warrant your comments.
        Is meth required? What does it do on straight race gas?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
        Static compression is high on the N54, which requires additional octane to suppress knock from the higher cylinder pressures.
        It's not necessarily high but higher thanks to direct injection. It mitigates the octane requirements somewhat with its cooling effect.
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Is meth required? What does it do on straight race gas?
        This is the question he wont answer
      1. Q4P's Avatar
        Q4P -
        I would be happy seeing no meth straight or mixed corn juice single dyno...
      1. bigdnno98's Avatar
        bigdnno98 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Q4P Click here to enlarge
        I would be happy seeing no meth straight or mixed corn juice single dyno...
        Im pretty sure they have one with no meth and e85. I'll look
      1. bigdnno98's Avatar
        bigdnno98 -
        604/484 on e85 no meth. It's on the other forum. It was captinsanos single. Can't post the link I'm on my phone
      1. Q4P's Avatar
        Q4P -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
        604/484 on e85 no meth. It's on the other forum. It was captinsanos single. Can't post the link I'm on my phone
        That's impressive no less... if the car can fuel that much, without a true fueling upgrade, I am very impressed. I am curious to see what this car runs at the 1/4. A good driver; key word "good", should be able to hit 10's but I am more curious of the traps.
      1. bigdnno98's Avatar
        bigdnno98 -
        Yes I am very impressed with the single turbo dynos. Without other data though like 1/4 mile, 60-130, or multiple logs they're really just dyno queens. No one knows but the car owners how the car really performs on a daily basis and how well the engine likes the tuning. Personally I'm not going to own a $10k ST kit so I'm kind of tired of waiting for real world results. I'm focusing now on what is relevant to me and that's the decision I have to make between RBs and Vargas turbos. I'm interested to see how much HP T is gonna squeeze out of his RBs now that he has some installed. That's more relevant to my situation.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
        604/484 on e85 no meth. It's on the other forum. It was captinsanos single. Can't post the link I'm on my phone
        Not bad, what about ms109 or something like that?
      1. mnst3r's Avatar
        mnst3r -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        What does it do on straight race gas?
        + 1
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
        604/484 on e85 no meth. It's on the other forum. It was captinsanos single. Can't post the link I'm on my phone
        Impressive.. but wait, cooler turbo, cooler fueling, why so low compared to meth runs?

        So the the e85 needs more volume, ill buy that, so... What about straight racefuel?

        Lastly, are any of these independent, or at shivs place?
      1. CaptainInsano's Avatar
        CaptainInsano -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
        Impressive.. but wait, cooler turbo, cooler fueling, why so low compared to meth runs?

        So the the e85 needs more volume, ill buy that, so... What about straight racefuel?

        Lastly, are any of these independent, or at shivs place?
        There's at most a 50whp difference between 91/meth and 91/E85 from what I have seen. I don't think the delta is even that high on my car. With E85/91 + meth my car made 657whp (obviously unfinished tune), and on E85/91 alone it made 604whp. I'm not sure how much more power we will make with meth as we move to higher concentrations of E85, but the deltas don't seem to be that high right now.
      1. lulz_m3's Avatar
        lulz_m3 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by CaptainInsano Click here to enlarge
        There's at most a 50whp difference between 91/meth and 91/E85 from what I have seen. I don't think the delta is even that high on my car. With E85/91 + meth my car made 657whp (obviously unfinished tune), and on E85/91 alone it made 604whp. I'm not sure how much more power we will make with meth as we move to higher concentrations of E85, but the deltas don't seem to be that high right now.
        I would have to assume your e85/91 only numbers are limited by fueling. Race gas should take care of that.