• Gintani discusses S65 V8 (E9X M3) engine issues, weaknesses, and defects - Will BMW do a recall?

                    
      		   
      Published on 01-19-2012 02:56 AM
      152 Comments Comments
      There have been a surprising number of S65 V8 failures. Some of these have been with supercharged motors and often times fanboys and tuners alike would engage in a mud slinging campaign pointing to a competing tuner as the reason for the failure. The fact of the matter is, the S65 V8 seems to have an inherent weakness. It's wet sump oiling system does not seem to evenly lubricate the bearings which eventually leads to a failure.

      This issue is not just seen on supercharged cars but stock cars as well. We have been speaking about Sal@evolve and here is what he had to say:

      Sal believes there is a defect that affects cylinder 5. Gintani in the video mentions an issue with the rods of the back cylinders. Sal believes it is an issue in the head. It may be a combination of these factors but it is worth exploring.

      What we do know is stock cars have failed. We do know the oil system does not seem to be up to par especially for motors driven hard. We know bearings are wearing unevenly. We know BMW did change part numbers on some of the bearings. We know BMW is replacing failed motors that have not violated their warranty with no questions asked. This is all strong evidence of a design defect.

      Since there does seem to be a problem, will BMW do a recall? The answer is likely not. It is cheaper for BMW to replace the failed motors and simply wait this issue out until all warranties have expired. Redesigning the oil system is not something the BMW M of today will do. With the S54, the bearing defect in the motor was fixed with a recall due to pressure from the internet and the issue being made widely known.

      We have evidence in the past that BMW is not perfect and makes mistakes. BMW is interested in profit above all else, that much is certainly clear. The only way for any of the issues with the S65 V8 to be corrected is for the community to pull together and begin documenting these failures. However, most tuners seem to be interested in taking advantage of any motor that fails which happens to be running a competing tune or kit and leveraging this against them instead of getting to the root of the issue.

      Gintani has their own solution that we will not delve into further but it will be applied to the BimmerBoost.com M3. The reality of the situation though is to properly address a weak point in the oiling system it should be made a dry sump oil system. Not a cheap solution, but the proper one. Check out the Gintani video below.



      This article was originally published in forum thread: Gintani exposes BMW S65 Motor Bearings/Blown Motor (Video Inside) started by Raz@Gintani View original post
      Comments 85 Comments
      1. doogle's Avatar
        doogle - 01-19-2012, 03:06 AM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        The reality of the situation though is to properly address a weak point in the oiling system it should be made a dry sump oil system. Not a cheap solution, but the proper one.
        Would it be possible to use the S85's dry sump system in the S65? I'm sure it would require some fabbing, but looking at part costs, it should still be substantially cheaper than the $7k option (if it is possible).
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky - 01-19-2012, 03:15 AM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by doogle Click here to enlarge
        Would it be possible to use the S85's dry sump system in the S65? I'm sure it would require some fabbing, but looking at part costs, it should still be substantially cheaper than the $7k option (if it is possible).
        Certainly something to look into. I don't know if it is that simple.
      1. M3_WC's Avatar
        M3_WC - 01-19-2012, 04:53 AM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Since there does seem to be a problem, will BMW do a recall? The answer is likely not. It is cheaper for BMW to replace the failed motors and simply wait this issue out until all warranties have expired. Redesigning the oil system is not something the BMW M of today will do. With the S54, the bearing defect in the motor was fixed with a recall due to pressure from the internet and the issue being made widely known.

        We have evidence in the past that BMW is not perfect and makes mistakes. BMW is interested in profit above all else, that much is certainly clear. The only way for any of the issues with the S65 V8 to be corrected is for the community to pull together and begin documenting these failures. However, most tuners seem to be interested in taking advantage of any motor that fails which happens to be running a competing tune or kit and leveraging this against them instead of getting to the root of the issue.
        Mmmm...seems like someone may need to start a class action, like the AMG M156 lawsuit. Unlike the M156 class action lawsuit, there seems to be more reported failures and visual evidence on the internet.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky - 01-19-2012, 05:10 AM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3_WC Click here to enlarge
        Mmmm...seems like someone may need to start a class action, like the AMG M156 lawsuit. Unlike the M156 class action lawsuit, there seems to be more reported failures and visual evidence on the internet.
        What I was thinking....
      1. inlineS54B32's Avatar
        inlineS54B32 - 01-19-2012, 08:33 AM
        A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up (we can change this to cylinder 5 for now). The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.Click here to enlarge
      1. black bnr32's Avatar
        black bnr32 - 01-19-2012, 09:23 AM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by black bnr32 Click here to enlarge
        don't s65 kits run a dedicated supercharger belt? or, is an existing belt path altered to accept the supercharger?
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I think there are different approaches to this.
        and your kit?

        what i'm getting at is,

        is there physically enough room between the end of the crank and the rad to fit an extra 2 belt paths? ie, one for a supercharger and one for a dry sump drive?
      1. ERM324's Avatar
        ERM324 - 01-19-2012, 11:03 AM
        Honestly you really have to look at the number of kits sold vs number of blown motors for each company. Not for nothing but this is why I went with ESS, no excuses in this regard. If these problems plagued the S65, wouldnt cars with ESS blowers have blown up as well in the very same fashion? Im not an ESS fanboy, nor Gintani - I'm always been pretty objective when it comes to this kind of stuff; but instead of looking into problems with the S65 some companies should look into their own kit and see why blowing motors is a common trend in the cars they touch. Now everyone is on a scare thinking the S65 isnt a reliable motor etc, there are MANY people out there who have strapped an AA or ESS blower on their car and have not had a single issue (after seeing Akash continuously beat the hell out of his car I have no doubt in my mind the AA kit is a very reliable piece, and the ESS kits I think speak for themselves). These instances are the exception, not the rule when it comes to this car.
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine - 01-19-2012, 12:43 PM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        forcing owners to sign NDA's so they can't reveal if they have motor issues?
        gee wonder who that one is.

        also, car belongs to me, im allowing you to hold onto it for a while
        2. call VAC, im sure they have or can have something fabbed up rather quickly.. everyone tuner buys stuff from them so they would jump at the chance to solve an issue before it becomes even more prevalent and be able to offer it to all..
      1. dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks's Avatar
        dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks - 01-19-2012, 12:48 PM
        bring the redline down lol oh the S65 and all its glorious blown motors in the true sense of the wordN54 ftmfw Click here to enlarge
      1. ultimateendz's Avatar
        ultimateendz - 01-19-2012, 12:58 PM
        LSX ftw!!!....lol...jk jk before i get lynched....hope the issues get addressed soon...would be nice to see a comparable S65 making the power the big drag domestics are making.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky - 01-19-2012, 04:14 PM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by black bnr32 Click here to enlarge

        is there physically enough room between the end of the crank and the rad to fit an extra 2 belt paths? ie, one for a supercharger and one for a dry sump drive?
        They seem to think there is.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky - 01-19-2012, 04:16 PM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ERM324 Click here to enlarge
        Not for nothing but this is why I went with ESS, no excuses in this regard. If these problems plagued the S65, wouldnt cars with ESS blowers have blown up as well in the very same fashion?
        You think they haven't? Didn't ESS force you for sign some paperwork?

        This isn't a tune issue. It's sad and sickening how ESS is jumping on the competition for BMW defects. This affects everyone and muddying the waters with nonsense about "tunes" or "bad kits" so they can make money off this is just pretty sad.

        It doesn't matter what kit you run if your bearings don't get oil.
      1. Itsbrokeagain's Avatar
        Itsbrokeagain - 01-19-2012, 07:34 PM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        You think they haven't? Didn't ESS force you for sign some paperwork?

        This isn't a tune issue. It's sad and sickening how ESS is jumping on the competition for BMW defects. This affects everyone and muddying the waters with nonsense about "tunes" or "bad kits" so they can make money off this is just pretty sad.

        It doesn't matter what kit you run if your bearings don't get oil.
        This. It doesnt matter what kit you have, even stock motors have kicked a rod, therefore taking the whole supercharger thing out of the picture.
      1. LZH's Avatar
        LZH - 01-19-2012, 07:40 PM
        How hard would it be to put an S85 into one of these cars ?
      1. Itsbrokeagain's Avatar
        Itsbrokeagain - 01-19-2012, 07:52 PM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        How hard would it be to put an S85 into one of these cars ?
        It could fit, would be a tight squeeze. The S65 is derived from the S85, do the trans will bolt up.

        Electronics is another story. However an S85 with DCT would be Click here to enlarge
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky - 01-19-2012, 08:41 PM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LZH Click here to enlarge
        How hard would it be to put an S85 into one of these cars ?
        It fits but it could only be done with a manual or SMG conversion.
      1. mkodama's Avatar
        mkodama - 01-19-2012, 08:48 PM
        I'm at a loss as to why people believe a dry sump system is required to fix the problem, and maybe even before that question, what the problem even is. Could somebody elaborate or show me the post I missed?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky - 01-19-2012, 09:00 PM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mkodama Click here to enlarge
        I'm at a loss as to why people believe a dry sump system is required to fix the problem, and maybe even before that question, what the problem even is. Could somebody elaborate or show me the post I missed?
        If you don't even know the problem then why comment you do not understand why people would say a dry sump oil system is needed to fix it?

        Please watch the video in the first post.
      1. mkodama's Avatar
        mkodama - 01-20-2012, 01:57 AM
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        If you don't even know the problem then why comment you do not understand why people would say a dry sump oil system is needed to fix it?

        Please watch the video in the first post.
        Very polite response with excellent sentence structure, mr. Sticky. Of course, such courtesy should be expected by such a prominent poster as yourself.

        All I saw were bearings that were failing and notes on the 5th cylinder failures were more prevalent. It was an interesting video and I liked how the speaker even showed that detonation was probably not the cause. I have seen nothing proving the failure was the design of the bearings, nothing proving the failure was oil pressure, and nothing proving it was the properties of the oil. The only thing I have seen was a whole lot of guessing.

        Correct me if I'm wrong, the point of a dry sump lubrication system is for packaging reasons and for lubrication under sustained cornering forces. I read nothing about the failures happening while driven on the track and to quote Sal@evolve , "Most cars were stock and blew at medium load around mid rpm's under normal driving." Dry sump isn't going to change your oil pressure. Dry sump isn't going to alter the flow of oil through your oil galleys.

        So please sticky, tell me how a dry sump system helps when you are doing "normal" driving in your M3?
      1. Sorena's Avatar
        Sorena - 01-20-2012, 02:48 AM
        If there is no oiling issue then Gintani needs to apologize some owners. It would be NOT FUNNY at all if this claim for them was just a guess.

        I think is the oiling is decent IMO.
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