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    • Autobild compares lap times of recent M cars - X5M and X6M outlap the E60 M5

      This is a very interesting comparison of all the current M cars by Autobild with an E60 M5 thrown in for good measure. The result is somewhat surprising in the sense that the new F10 M5 (which is quite heavy) manages to outlap a DCT E92 M3 on the Sachsenring in Germany. The X5M and X6M also outlap the the E60 M5 which certainly is impressive. The M3 GTS and M3 CRT naturally were the quickest around the track being lighter and more powerful models created with the track in mind. And yes, the 1M lapped the course slightly quicker than the E92 M3.

      Laptimes:

      1:37.30 - M3 GTS on Semi-slick tires (€115,000 or about $148,000)
      1:38.87 - M3 CRT (€130,000 or about $168,000)
      1:38.90 - F10 M5 driven by Claudia Hurtgen (~$95,000)
      1:40.18 - 1M Coupe ($46,135)
      1:40.52 - M3 Coupe with DCT ($59,900)
      1:40.60 - M3 Sedan with DCT ($55,900)
      1:42.63 - M3 Convertible with DCT ($68,550)
      1:43.67 - X6 M ($90,000)
      1:43.72 - X5 M ($86,900)
      1:43.77 - E60 M5 ($85,700)




      This article was originally published in forum thread: M-cars compared - lap times started by 654 View original post
      Comments 37 Comments
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
        Oh my gosh. Maybe BMW had to respect some sort of regulations , which seem to be common in most racing series Click here to enlarge
        It seems BMW decided to be at their best in this series a V8 was necessary. Did you forget they switched from a 6? And did it over a decade ago?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
        They drove the current M fleet and the e60 M5 time is from their testing after its launch. The track back then was a bit damp and e60 can do better than that.
        Thanks for this. I'm not sure why they would include it then as it wasn't tested in the same conditions, not fair.
      1. Autobahn335i's Avatar
        Autobahn335i -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        You have no idea how much time the tires account for except that they are a factor.

        The M3 has a longer wheelbase, is right at a similar weight with the 1M, has a carbon roof for lower center of gravity, has more power, better suspension, etc. It simply is superior around the track.
        You should read the german mag SportAuto more oftenly Click here to enlarge They often test cars on the Hockenheimring (small course) where they generally claim that semislicks account for a 1-1.5 seconds advantage over street tires. Lap times are in the 1.15 minutes range on that course. So admitting the same time advantage on the slightly longer Sachsenring is certainly not a stretch!

        If the M3 is "superior" on the track vs the 1M, why is it slower then? Click here to enlarge
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
        You should read the german mag SportAuto more oftenly Click here to enlarge They often test cars on the Hockenheimring (small course) where they generally claim that semislicks account for a 1-1.5 seconds advantage over street tires. Lap times are in the 1.15 minutes range on that course. So admitting the same time advantage on the slightly longer Sachsenring is certainly not a stretch!

        If the M3 is "superior" on the track vs the 1M, why is it slower then? Click here to enlarge
        Earlier you said 1 to 2 seconds. 2 seconds being a half second more than what you are now claiming. So, which is it? I get the impression you were trying to inflate the difference as if to say the tires account for most of the difference.

        Well, I think the ring shows a bit more than a shorter track.

        Secondly, I don't read SportAuto but am familiar with various tire compounds. Yes, they make a difference, but putting R-comps on a 1M doesn't turn it into an M3 GTS which is the best track car in the BMW lineup today, period. It also happens to be the M car BMW execs stated they would choose themselves for a lap around the ring.

        How is it slower? We have had several tests now some of which show the M3 as faster and some which show the 1M close on tight tracks. You are reading a bit much into one set of numbers on one track.
      1. DavidV's Avatar
        DavidV -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        The M3 has a longer wheelbase, is right at a similar weight with the 1M, has a carbon roof for lower center of gravity, has more power, better suspension, etc. It simply is superior around the track.
        Mmm, wait. Why do you claim a longer wheel base would be better on a track???
        I would prefer a shorter wheel base on a track every time. It is not drag racing, it is track racing.
        Longer wheel base creates better stability al higher speeds in a straight line, shorter wheelbase makes a car turn better. The more square a wheel setup is the better the handling.
      1. Autobahn335i's Avatar
        Autobahn335i -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge

        Secondly, I don't read SportAuto but am familiar with various tire compounds. Yes, they make a difference, but putting R-comps on a 1M doesn't turn it into an M3 GTS which is the best track car in the BMW lineup today, period. It also happens to be the M car BMW execs stated they would choose themselves for a lap around the ring.
        Erm, I thought you'd be smarter to fall for such marketing hype Click here to enlarge

        The GTS is barely (if at all) faster than the E46 CSL, depending on the track. At double the price, and with a stripped interior, rollcage etc. So where's the progress in that? Just shows that M Gmbh have taken a wrong turn in designing the current M3.

        Luckily Audi and Merc did even worse, with their cars (RS5, C63 AMG) being even heavier and handling less good. But the latest C63 AMG seems to be on par handlingwise, with more power! Let's see how the next-gen M3 (or M4) will turn out.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
        Mmm, wait. Why do you claim a longer wheel base would be better on a track???
        I've been noticing the 1M's short wheelbase makes it almost twitchy. It seems to go past the limit pretty quick and want to hang its tail out all the time. The M3 appears more composed and these tendencies I brought up regarding the 1M seem to be mentioned frequently in reviews.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
        Erm, I thought you'd be smarter to fall for such marketing hype
        The ring time is marketing hype? Even the E46 M3 CSL with less power the wheels is outlapping the 1M on the ring.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
        The GTS is barely (if at all) faster than the E46 CSL, depending on the track. At double the price, and with a stripped interior, rollcage etc. So where's the progress in that? Just shows that M Gmbh have taken a wrong turn in designing the current M3.
        No debate from me there, both the CSL and GTS are better track cars tahn the 1M. The GTS is simply a more hardcore version of the M3 like the CSL. They made the M3 better, that doesn't mean anything was wrong with it. What, Ferrari releasing the Scuderia means there is something wrong with the regular F430? Illogical.
      1. M3GTtt's Avatar
        M3GTtt -
        The track seems to be
        1slow and
        2twitchy,
        3wet and
        4cold,
        Either all above or a mix .. which will favour the more torque cars, and those with 4x4.On almost any other track the E92M3 will be faster than the 1M in decent conditions, well it is a bit interesting to see how the "newer models" fair better than the older. The E60M5 is a very quick car, on most tracks, and this test really does not tell me anything.The conditions must have been damp or conditions very cold or both.., because the tires alone on the GTS should like Autobahn335i states, give a bigger advantage alone than the total. Then you have -more power (both hp/torque) than the CRT along -with less weight-faster shifting... and all of this only gives you a margin of 1.5seconds... on a 1:40 lap.. The test is making less sense as I read through it.
      1. DavidV's Avatar
        DavidV -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I've been noticing the 1M's short wheelbase makes it almost twitchy. It seems to go past the limit pretty quick and want to hang its tail out all the time. The M3 appears more composed and these tendencies I brought up regarding the 1M seem to be mentioned frequently in reviews.
        The nr 1 cause for the 1M wanting to oversteer is the amount of torque delivered by the N54 at lower rpm.
        With a M3 you really have to rev the engine to get to the higher powerband. The N54 does not need high rpm to get much torque.
        Again, Joseph, maybe you should first try to drive a 1M before shooting down this car for what it says om paper.
        And the 1M still only has 265 size rubber on the rear wheels as standard tire size versus the 285 (? not sure) of a standard M3.
        That would break it out a little more easy with the same carweight.
      1. Autobahn335i's Avatar
        Autobahn335i -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        The ring time is marketing hype? Even the E46 M3 CSL with less power the wheels is outlapping the 1M on the ring.

        No debate from me there, both the CSL and GTS are better track cars tahn the 1M. The GTS is simply a more hardcore version of the M3 like the CSL. They made the M3 better, that doesn't mean anything was wrong with it. What, Ferrari releasing the Scuderia means there is something wrong with the regular F430? Illogical.
        Yes, Bmw made the M3 better (for tracking) with the GTS, but the fact that it can't even beat its predecessor, the CSL, shows there's something wrong. It's just too damn heavy. Strip out a CSL the same way and you're looking at what, maybe 1200kg? That would drive circles around all E9x M3s...
      1. M3GTtt's Avatar
        M3GTtt -
        Not sure a stripped CSL would drive circles around the GTS, even with the added weight it has so much more power and a better gearbox.Talking about driving circles around CLS's.. check out 2:40 on this video from SPA Click here to enlarge
      1. 654's Avatar
        654 -
        You can speculate all you want with the ridiculous and uncomfortable limited edition models that do not even exist in real life, but in your dreams and in collectors' garages. And those few cars are way overpriced to be driven anyways.

        Now, comparing cars that actually run in the rain, have aircon, and even radio, just compare the regular M-versions. e92 M3 is way quicker than e46 M3. Moreover, the e92 M3 performance comes with the modern safety standards and the related weight addition.

        e92 M3, unlike its predecessor, can compete even with the newer cars such as 1M and M5.

        M5 is the king for now though. It is surprisingly fast taking into account its official weight and power figures. Well, those are just figures in paper.
      1. DavidV's Avatar
        DavidV -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3GTtt Click here to enlarge
        check out 2:40 on this video from SPA
        Wow man, your car has tons of grip and go. Were you on slicks?
        And easy under 3 minutes, really impressive for Spa.Click here to enlarge
      1. M3GTtt's Avatar
        M3GTtt -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
        Wow man, your car has tons of grip and go. Were you on slicks?
        And easy under 3 minutes, really impressive for Spa.Click here to enlarge
        Yes Semislicks, Michelin Pilot Sport 235/40-18 front and 265/35-18 rear. The car was not really performing its best this day, had some boost leak problems so I could only do 12psi, and I was running a suuuuuper high diffrential, or a S2.65 from a 325tds, hence the grip but also not as fast as it could be. 2.65 makes it possible to reach 200km/h in 3rd gear on the semislicks, and 280km/h in 4th. You can see that I dont need to change gears that much.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
        The nr 1 cause for the 1M wanting to oversteer is the amount of torque delivered by the N54 at lower rpm.
        With a M3 you really have to rev the engine to get to the higher powerband. The N54 does not need high rpm to get much torque.
        Again, Joseph, maybe you should first try to drive a 1M before shooting down this car for what it says om paper.
        And the 1M still only has 265 size rubber on the rear wheels as standard tire size versus the 285 (? not sure) of a standard M3.
        That would break it out a little more easy with the same carweight.
        I'm not shooting the car down. I'm criticizing its makeup and it being classified as an M car.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
        Yes, Bmw made the M3 better (for tracking) with the GTS, but the fact that it can't even beat its predecessor, the CSL, shows there's something wrong. It's just too damn heavy. Strip out a CSL the same way and you're looking at what, maybe 1200kg? That would drive circles around all E9x M3s...
        Uh, it did beat its predecessor around the ring.