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    • DCT Build Part XII - Build complete, pictures of final assembly, transmission cooler, and Viton seals

      Well, this has been a rather lengthy road to completion but the transmission is basically complete. The car was dropped off by SSP last month to Gintani who should have the motor in by the end of this week. The problem is SSP mounted their trans cooler in the location the heat exchanger for the supercharger needs to go so SSP will need to come to Gintani's facility to re-run their lines as the cooler will need to go in a different location. What took so long for this update? Well, we have been waiting, and waiting, and waiting for SSP to send us details on the Viton seals that required 3 redesigns but never received the information on why these seals are superior to the stock units.

      So, I decided to do my own research and here is what I came up with. These are the stock BMW seals used in the DCT. What is wrong with them exactly? We do not know other than they apparently are not up to the task:










      Here are the Viton seals which delayed the project by 3 months. Viton is a synthetic rubber used for seals, O-rings, things of that sort. Viton was likely used as it is less susceptible to decay and already used in BMW applications such as in VANOS. Viton has much higher temperature and chemical resistance characteristics than the stock seals. Here is what they look like:










      This is the DCT cooler that was mounted by SSP up front. This needs to be moved somewhere else as the supercharger heat exchanger will need to go there. This means SSP will need to come out and run their lines again checking all their fluids and so forth before tuning can take place:














      This is the final assembly. So, the transmission is built but it took about a year longer than estimated. I believe I was as patient as possible and hopefully this will all be wrapped up in December with a built motor, built transmission, a YSI, and a ton of horsepower.






































      This article was originally published in forum thread: M3 DCT Build Journal - World's First BMW DCT Build started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 2372 Comments
      1. JRCART's Avatar
        JRCART -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Ya like I don't want to post anything. People should just be patient these posts are absurd and idiotic. Easy to sit there and type especially when someone has no idea what is going on.
        Sticky the only thing I see here that is absurd is the length of time this build has taken. I have been modding and racing cars and motorcycles probably close to as long as you have been alive. Never have I seen a build get dragged along for this long.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        I assume you meant bore spacing gives very little material?
        That's part of it as well but no I mean the material at the top of the block.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        Not sure how far along you are in fixing this but why not send the block to Darton and have them R&D a M.I.D. sleeve for you?
        This has all already been done you're way behind. But you guys all assume it's just sitting there and nothing is happening, it's absurd.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        Not a knock on Gintani but performance shop should not be mucking around guessing at sleeve design etc that's $#@! 99% of machine shops cant handle.
        They didn't do the original sleeve design Darton did. So... umm.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
        Sticky the only thing I see here that is absurd is the length of time this build has taken. I have been modding and racing cars and motorcycles probably close to as long as you have been alive. Never have I seen a build get dragged along for this long.
        How long you have been racing or modifying cars has absolutely nothing to do with issues presented by the S65 and its alu-sil construction. BMW didn't build this motor to the level/strength of the S54.
      1. Jimefam's Avatar
        Jimefam -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        That's part of it as well but no I mean the material at the top of the block.

        the deck height is the measurement from the centerline of the crank to the top of the deck so unless you made the sleeve longer instead of thicker you mean bore space and just dont know it

        This has all already been done you're way behind. But you guys all assume it's just sitting there and nothing is happening, it's absurd.

        I asked because you were contacting Dart about a billet block not too long ago so it seemed possible either it wasnt resolved or there wasnt alot of faith in the resolution



        They didn't do the original sleeve design Darton did. So... umm.
        Of course Gintani didnt actually construct the sleeve i knew it was Darton but unless you sent them your block and paid them to R&D it all they did was build whatever was specc'd to them. If it works or not is not within their ability to know. Plus had you sent it to their R&D 1 it would have worked and 2 it would habe been a MID sleeve.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        the deck height is the measurement from the centerline of the crank to the top of the deck so unless you made the sleeve longer instead of thicker you mean bore space and just dont know it
        Or the sleeve is longer and I know exactly what I'm saying?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        I asked because you were contacting Dart about a billet block not too long ago so it seemed possible either it wasnt resolved or there wasnt alot of faith in the resolution
        Just a separate issue out of curiosity and for fun.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        Of course Gintani didnt actually construct the sleeve i knew it was Darton but unless you sent them your block and paid them to R&D it all they did was build whatever was specc'd to them. If it works or not is not within their ability to know. Plus had you sent it to their R&D 1 it would have worked and 2 it would habe been a MID sleeve.
        Yes, they received a block. And it didn't work the first way and guess what HPF had similar problems.
      1. JRCART's Avatar
        JRCART -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Or the sleeve is longer and I know exactly what I'm saying?
        You building a stroker?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
        You building a stroker?
        No.
      1. Jimefam's Avatar
        Jimefam -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Or the sleeve is longer and I know exactly what I'm saying?



        Just a separate issue out of curiosity and for fun.



        Yes, they received a block. And it didn't work the first way and guess what HPF had similar problems.
        No you dont know what your saying or you wouldnt have said you had to little material at the top of the block(length of sleeve would be irrelevant as is deck height) and further said bmw left too little material
      1. Jimefam's Avatar
        Jimefam -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Or the sleeve is longer and I know exactly what I'm saying?



        Just a separate issue out of curiosity and for fun.



        Yes, they received a block. And it didn't work the first way and guess what HPF had similar problems.
        And I call BS on them R&Ding the sleeves post up who @Darton engineered them. Lol at the hpf saw a few videos on that and ill bet that wasnt a darton build either, hell one of their videos is at their machinists shop.
      1. Jimefam's Avatar
        Jimefam -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        No.
        For what would you want a longer sleeve and why that cause the block to flex????
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        For what would you want a longer sleeve and why that cause the block to flex????
        Big boost is causing the S65 block to flex. It's not a big deal on the stock compression kits, but it's a problem on the low-compression builds
      1. Jimefam's Avatar
        Jimefam -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        Big boost is causing the S65 block to flex. It's not a big deal on the stock compression kits, but it's a problem on the low-compression builds
        Have you not read the last pages? He is saying the block is flexing due to the sleeves leaving too little material nothing in regards to boost. He also got confused and claimed he had too little material around the sleeves due to deck height then said his sleeves were longer than the stock cylinders. Longer sleeves to run the stock stroke btw!
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        Have you not read the last pages? He is saying the block is flexing due to the sleeves leaving too little material nothing in regards to boost. He also got confused and claimed he had too little material around the sleeves due to deck height then said his sleeves were longer than the stock cylinders. Longer sleeves to run the stock stroke btw!
        Just re-read post #1530. Gintani only sleeves their low-compression builds & the sleeves are working exactly as advertised. The problem is the Alusil block isn't very strong & when you bore out the cylinders to install the sleeves, it further exposes the weak block strength of the S65 (which is why the stress from higher boost levels is causing the block to flex).

        ESS isn't having the same "problem" because they're maintaining the OEM block without sleeves (slightly higher block rigidity) and not pushing the S65 as aggressive (ESS runs the VT3 at 14 psi, Gintani's Stage 3 "low boost" is 15 psi).

        Is this build chasing an unobtainable goal, becoming a money pit + a bit ridiculous? Maybe, especially if it's going to require a Dart billet block (an extra $15-20k) just to run higher boost & avoid block flex. BUT if everything works out, this is going to be the baddest S65
      1. Jimefam's Avatar
        Jimefam -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        Just re-read post #1530. Gintani only sleeves their low-compression builds & the sleeves are working exactly as advertised. The problem is the Alusil block isn't very strong & when you bore out the cylinders to install the sleeves, it further exposes the weak block strength of the S65 (which is why the stress from higher boost levels is causing the block to flex).

        ESS isn't having the same "problem" because they're maintaining the OEM block without sleeves (slightly higher block rigidity) and not pushing the S65 as aggressive (ESS runs the VT3 at 14 psi, Gintani's Stage 3 "low boost" is 15 psi).

        Is this build chasing an unobtainable goal, becoming a money pit + a bit ridiculous? Maybe, especially if it's going to require a Dart billet block (an extra $15-20k) just to run higher boost & avoid block flex. BUT if everything works out, this is going to be the baddest S65
        I wouldnt be so quick to blame the Alusil, the Audi V10 has done pretty well in the new R8 and Gallardo's.
      1. meinauto's Avatar
        meinauto -
        Don't think the issue is Alusil - it is the design of the sleeve
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        I wouldnt be so quick to blame the Alusil, the Audi V10 has done pretty well in the new R8 and Gallardo's.
        But has it? The TT-G V10s that get the UGR/Dallas Performance built motor treatment are all also sleeved. I don't know what their bore and cylinder spacing is, but I imagine it's more friendly to boost than the S65. Those cars are also turbocharged, which works off exhaust gases & puts less stress on the block (the pistons & rods are more susceptible to breaking under the pressure).

        Regardless, a poorly installed cylinder sleeve can turn any block into garbage. If a shop that has no experience installing sleeves or working with a particular material (alusil vs. iron), then it shouldn't be a surprise that the install doesn't go smoothly.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        No you dont know what your saying or you wouldnt have said you had to little material at the top of the block(length of sleeve would be irrelevant as is deck height) and further said bmw left too little material
        Maybe you need to look at an S65 block?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        And I call BS on them R&Ding the sleeves post up who @Darton engineered them. Lol at the hpf saw a few videos on that and ill bet that wasnt a darton build either, hell one of their videos is at their machinists shop.
        Number of the shop is online, call them if you like.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        For what would you want a longer sleeve and why that cause the block to flex????
        What causes it to flex is using a flanged sleeve like I already told you.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        Have you not read the last pages? He is saying the block is flexing due to the sleeves leaving too little material nothing in regards to boost. He also got confused and claimed he had too little material around the sleeves due to deck height then said his sleeves were longer than the stock cylinders. Longer sleeves to run the stock stroke btw!
        No I didn't get confused you seem to have. I didn't mention the bore spacing, you did.