• DCT Build Part XII - Build complete, pictures of final assembly, transmission cooler, and Viton seals

      Well, this has been a rather lengthy road to completion but the transmission is basically complete. The car was dropped off by SSP last month to Gintani who should have the motor in by the end of this week. The problem is SSP mounted their trans cooler in the location the heat exchanger for the supercharger needs to go so SSP will need to come to Gintani's facility to re-run their lines as the cooler will need to go in a different location. What took so long for this update? Well, we have been waiting, and waiting, and waiting for SSP to send us details on the Viton seals that required 3 redesigns but never received the information on why these seals are superior to the stock units.

      So, I decided to do my own research and here is what I came up with. These are the stock BMW seals used in the DCT. What is wrong with them exactly? We do not know other than they apparently are not up to the task:










      Here are the Viton seals which delayed the project by 3 months. Viton is a synthetic rubber used for seals, O-rings, things of that sort. Viton was likely used as it is less susceptible to decay and already used in BMW applications such as in VANOS. Viton has much higher temperature and chemical resistance characteristics than the stock seals. Here is what they look like:










      This is the DCT cooler that was mounted by SSP up front. This needs to be moved somewhere else as the supercharger heat exchanger will need to go there. This means SSP will need to come out and run their lines again checking all their fluids and so forth before tuning can take place:














      This is the final assembly. So, the transmission is built but it took about a year longer than estimated. I believe I was as patient as possible and hopefully this will all be wrapped up in December with a built motor, built transmission, a YSI, and a ton of horsepower.





































      This article was originally published in forum thread: M3 DCT Build Journal - World's First BMW DCT Build started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 2372 Comments
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
        Nah, Sticky is a attention whore and just wants to build up suspense LOLI'm interested in the findings too. DCT is really the only way to go in an M3! I wonder what german tuners like Manhart Racing or Hamann would say on these issues. I know they can handle whole engine and transmission swaps, so maybe they also have something up their sleeve to strengthen the DCT? Maybe Sticky should reach out in that direction?
        Those german companies you mentioned aren't on the US level. Honestly, we crush them for less money. We're honestly still the best in the private sector in car tuning.
      1. Autobahn335i's Avatar
        Autobahn335i -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Those german companies you mentioned aren't on the US level. Honestly, we crush them for less money. We're honestly still the best in the private sector in car tuning.
        The best for domestics, but also the best for german cars...?

        G-Power offers high power S/C kits and a "modified DCT Drivelogic". I'd give them a call.

        http://www.g-power.de/934.html?L=1&c...#Produkt_Start
      1. MisterEm's Avatar
        MisterEm -
        @Sticky

        Any technical updates or SSP updates?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MisterEm Click here to enlarge
        @Sticky

        Any technical updates or SSP updates?
        Just wait.
      1. Serps's Avatar
        Serps -
        http://bimmerboost.com/showthread.ph...525#post452525

        SSP CLUTCH PACK UPDATE Click here to enlarge
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Serps Click here to enlarge
        Sticky posted a separate update showing his works too
      1. MisterEm's Avatar
        MisterEm -
        K.I.S.S. method strikes again.
      1. PEI330Ci's Avatar
        PEI330Ci -
        I think this is ridiculous, all of it.

        There will never be a truthful side to this debacle, because so many chefs have been in the kitchen.

        My experience with technical issues in general is that there is never a clear cause. The more you dig, the more variables you find that could contribute to widely varying outcomes. I do this type of investigation for a living, with huge amounts of $$$ at stake, and I've never seen a beneficial situation from hostility.

        All of this mud-slinging between parties isn't benifiting anyone. (Unless you enjoy public spats)

        While an OEM transmission is going to handle the new power output for a little while, fatigue and wear is going to surface. It's just a matter of time; even 2000hp drag racing transmissions have failures. What I would do if I was working with this type of transmission, is look into materials processing. There is a ton of processes that can make existing OEM parts stronger, and more durable, without making them out of new and un-tested materials. Companies like Sulzer, WPC, and others with Cryo and REM polishing treatments are hugely successful in the motorsports environment. This stuff works.

        For these clutch disks, there is just as much science involved in the transmission fluid as in the clutch material itself. Using different friction modifiers will affect how the clutch works, regardless of electronic control strategy and line pressures. I mention this just as an example of a variable that can leave you asking more questions than are answered...

        I guess a person needs to ask where they get their enjoyment from? Building something that works, or enormously drawn out public debates.

        Some people may not like what I'm saying, and that's fine. I'm probably contributing to the drama that I complain about by making this post.....
      1. Commanderwiggin's Avatar
        Commanderwiggin -
        ^ Risk cause analysis...like you said there are too many chef's in the kitchen and it is a system of reasons that the setup never worked to begin with.

        Regardless the lack of support by SSP and the time consumed is a fact...those reasons alone are enough to not do business with them IMO.
      1. c32AMG-DTM's Avatar
        c32AMG-DTM -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin Click here to enlarge
        Regardless the lack of support by SSP and the time consumed is a fact...those reasons alone are enough to not do business with them IMO.
        It is worrisome - certainly, and worth considering before buying hardware from such a vendor.

        However, if the whole build had been a little more timely, maybe the support would've been better... no way to know.

        Sticky posted that he paid in full for his motor build back in 2010 (IIRC) by selling his old S/C kit and giving the cash proceeds to Gintani. As far as I can tell, the motor build wasn't even started until late 2012 or maybe even early 2013. Sticky's good with the delays, and it's his car so that's all that matters - but me? I'd have been pissed with my shop if I'd paid them in full for something and they didn't even start the agreed-upon work for 2+ years after being paid. You don't need the trans in the car to build the motor...
      1. MisterEm's Avatar
        MisterEm -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
        I think this is ridiculous, all of it.

        There will never be a truthful side to this debacle, because so many chefs have been in the kitchen.

        My experience with technical issues in general is that there is never a clear cause. The more you dig, the more variables you find that could contribute to widely varying outcomes. I do this type of investigation for a living, with huge amounts of $$$ at stake, and I've never seen a beneficial situation from hostility.

        All of this mud-slinging between parties isn't benifiting anyone. (Unless you enjoy public spats)

        While an OEM transmission is going to handle the new power output for a little while, fatigue and wear is going to surface. It's just a matter of time; even 2000hp drag racing transmissions have failures. What I would do if I was working with this type of transmission, is look into materials processing. There is a ton of processes that can make existing OEM parts stronger, and more durable, without making them out of new and un-tested materials. Companies like Sulzer, WPC, and others with Cryo and REM polishing treatments are hugely successful in the motorsports environment. This stuff works.

        For these clutch disks, there is just as much science involved in the transmission fluid as in the clutch material itself. Using different friction modifiers will affect how the clutch works, regardless of electronic control strategy and line pressures. I mention this just as an example of a variable that can leave you asking more questions than are answered...

        I guess a person needs to ask where they get their enjoyment from? Building something that works, or enormously drawn out public debates.

        Some people may not like what I'm saying, and that's fine. I'm probably contributing to the drama that I complain about by making this post.....
        Insightful as always Adam. Couldn't agree with you more. +rep to you.
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
        However, if the whole build had been a little more timely, maybe the support would've been better... no way to know.

        Sticky posted that he paid in full for his motor build back in 2010 (IIRC) by selling his old S/C kit and giving the cash proceeds to Gintani. As far as I can tell, the motor build wasn't even started until late 2012 or maybe even early 2013. Sticky's good with the delays, and it's his car so that's all that matters - but me? I'd have been pissed with my shop if I'd paid them in full for something and they didn't even start the agreed-upon work for 2+ years after being paid. You don't need the trans in the car to build the motor...
        You really didn't read the thread did you? Gintani discovered after building, testing and researching their own Stage 3 with the YSI that the S65 was having block-flex issues, which took additional time for R&D to discover a viable solution that worked with the Alusil block. He's also adjusted the piston/stroke length without increasing displacement, something never before done on the S65.

        Also, Gintani isn't going to release a product for consumers until it's 100% been tested + proven to be a turnkey operation. How irresponsible would it be for Gintani (or any vendor) to just sell a product because it's in demand and never conduct in-depth testing (or better yet, use the customer's driving experience as their "testing").
      1. Njz's Avatar
        Njz -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        How irresponsible would it be for Gintani (or any vendor) to just sell a product because it's in demand and never conduct in-depth testing (or better yet, use the customer's driving experience as their "testing").
        I am sorry but I just saw shiv's entire singles project flash before my eyes when I read this part lol.
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Njz Click here to enlarge
        I am sorry but I just saw shiv's entire singles project flash before my eyes when I read this part lol.
        Click here to enlarge
      1. c32AMG-DTM's Avatar
        c32AMG-DTM -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        You really didn't read the thread did you? Gintani discovered after building, testing and researching their own Stage 3 with the YSI that the S65 was having block-flex issues, which took additional time for R&D to discover a viable solution that worked with the Alusil block. He's also adjusted the piston/stroke length without increasing displacement, something never before done on the S65.

        Also, Gintani isn't going to release a product for consumers until it's 100% been tested + proven to be a turnkey operation. How irresponsible would it be for Gintani (or any vendor) to just sell a product because it's in demand and never conduct in-depth testing (or better yet, use the customer's driving experience as their "testing").
        Who said anything about a product release? Of course significant testing would have to occur before a "package" or "kit" would be released.

        Here, I'll make it simple, since apparently I'm having a tough time reading the thread: when did Sticky pay Gintani in full for his motor build, and when did they finish the first motor build attempt? Since you've followed along more closely, I'm sure you can help with those dates.
      1. Commanderwiggin's Avatar
        Commanderwiggin -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
        Who said anything about a product release? Of course significant testing would have to occur before a "package" or "kit" would be released.

        Here, I'll make it simple, since apparently I'm having a tough time reading the thread: when did Sticky pay Gintani in full for his motor build, and when did they finish the first motor build attempt? Since you've followed along more closely, I'm sure you can help with those dates.
        If you care so much read the $#@!ing thread...useless post.
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
        Who said anything about a product release? Of course significant testing would have to occur before a "package" or "kit" would be released.

        Here, I'll make it simple, since apparently I'm having a tough time reading the thread: when did Sticky pay Gintani in full for his motor build, and when did they finish the first motor build attempt? Since you've followed along more closely, I'm sure you can help with those dates.
        Post #1530 on Page 62 of the thread from back in February....

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Since flanged sleeves were originally used in three motors and since the deck height of the S65 block gives very little material to work with it wasn't discovered until all three motors were assembled and supercharged and tuned in the cars that by removing material from the block for flanged sleeves causes it to flex under big power. Rather than strengthening it, it weakened it.

        So, three motors disassembled and three new blocks purchased ON THEIR DIME and a new sleeve design in coordination with Darton was figured out which I will not share and not to mention something else regarding rod angles which I won't even get into as no other builder even remotely has a clue. This along with new internals and I decided I wanted higher compression so also new pistons ON THEIR DIME.

        As I said, it's a process and back when I posted everyone was advocating flanged sleeves and nobody even knew what would happen because nobody else is pushing these motors this far. So maybe starting the motor build, internal, and sleeve design over caused a slight delay? But oh, ya, terrible job they are doing GETTING IT RIGHT.

        Next time make sure you have the whole story before you decide to comment. That would also require this information though, regarding the Gintani Stage 3 YSI 6MT Shop Car back in Feb '12. The block flex issue was really discovered after the car had been run for a while, testing had been done & the tear down begun to see how the internals were responding to the tune, the YSI boost & driving abuse. Hear we are about ~1 year later and Sticky's car is up & running EXCEPT for the upgraded transmission (which was not under Gintani's control).


        BTW -- The C32 AMG is an embarrassment to AMG cars, especially when you consider the M113 5.4L supercharged V8 was out at the same time.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin Click here to enlarge
        Regardless the lack of support by SSP and the time consumed is a fact...those reasons alone are enough to not do business with them IMO.
        Exactly.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
        It is worrisome - certainly, and worth considering before buying hardware from such a vendor.

        However, if the whole build had been a little more timely, maybe the support would've been better... no way to know.

        Sticky posted that he paid in full for his motor build back in 2010 (IIRC) by selling his old S/C kit and giving the cash proceeds to Gintani. As far as I can tell, the motor build wasn't even started until late 2012 or maybe even early 2013. Sticky's good with the delays, and it's his car so that's all that matters - but me? I'd have been pissed with my shop if I'd paid them in full for something and they didn't even start the agreed-upon work for 2+ years after being paid. You don't need the trans in the car to build the motor...
        The motor was rebuilt. The first sleeve design didn't work. I mean I can only say so much. After these Stage III cars are all out there we can delve into the whole S65 building fiasco. Nobody has motors on this level for a reason.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
        Who said anything about a product release? Of course significant testing would have to occur before a "package" or "kit" would be released.

        Here, I'll make it simple, since apparently I'm having a tough time reading the thread: when did Sticky pay Gintani in full for his motor build, and when did they finish the first motor build attempt? Since you've followed along more closely, I'm sure you can help with those dates.
        You need to understand that there are three people all basically doing the Stage III's at the same time. So basically three setups got rebuilt. Mine never even got to start I don't think before having to be rebuilt although they put the motor back in and everything but there was no point.

        The motor was paid for back when I sold my original kit. Then after that I paid for the YSI, new manifold, new exhaust, new meth system, cage, racing seats, gauges, labor, and all kinds of other stuff. I don't even know how this all keeps adding up but it does the longer the car sits there. Next thing will be a new trans, lines, etc.

        Did Gintani take longer than expected? Yep, way longer. But at least they are getting it right.