Close

    • DCT Build Part XII - Build complete, pictures of final assembly, transmission cooler, and Viton seals

      Well, this has been a rather lengthy road to completion but the transmission is basically complete. The car was dropped off by SSP last month to Gintani who should have the motor in by the end of this week. The problem is SSP mounted their trans cooler in the location the heat exchanger for the supercharger needs to go so SSP will need to come to Gintani's facility to re-run their lines as the cooler will need to go in a different location. What took so long for this update? Well, we have been waiting, and waiting, and waiting for SSP to send us details on the Viton seals that required 3 redesigns but never received the information on why these seals are superior to the stock units.

      So, I decided to do my own research and here is what I came up with. These are the stock BMW seals used in the DCT. What is wrong with them exactly? We do not know other than they apparently are not up to the task:










      Here are the Viton seals which delayed the project by 3 months. Viton is a synthetic rubber used for seals, O-rings, things of that sort. Viton was likely used as it is less susceptible to decay and already used in BMW applications such as in VANOS. Viton has much higher temperature and chemical resistance characteristics than the stock seals. Here is what they look like:










      This is the DCT cooler that was mounted by SSP up front. This needs to be moved somewhere else as the supercharger heat exchanger will need to go there. This means SSP will need to come out and run their lines again checking all their fluids and so forth before tuning can take place:














      This is the final assembly. So, the transmission is built but it took about a year longer than estimated. I believe I was as patient as possible and hopefully this will all be wrapped up in December with a built motor, built transmission, a YSI, and a ton of horsepower.





































      This article was originally published in forum thread: M3 DCT Build Journal - World's First BMW DCT Build started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 2372 Comments
      1. hifiguy@gaphix's Avatar
        hifiguy@gaphix -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Considering that e-mail is from the owner I don't think I can go up any further.
        O_O

        in that case, you're in the driver seat on how to proceed.

        with great power comes great responsibility. Click here to enlarge
      1. nafoo's Avatar
        nafoo -
        Statute of limitations in Texas for breach of contract/fraud is 4 years. FYI.
      1. MisterEm's Avatar
        MisterEm -
        Wow. What a shame.

        If he is bowing out of the project, he should "bow back" the money spent on a defective non-functioning product.

        Find another shop willing to look at the trans and hire an attorney practicing in Texas.

        Anything you say in here will just be used against you unfortunately.

        Good Luck Sticky.
      1. George Smooth's Avatar
        George Smooth -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        They won't. I really think I should just post my entire experience.
        I think this would be a good idea because without a timeline of events and occurances staying quite all this time has made the engine builder look worse than he might deserve considering what has occurred is a total unknown to everyone that reads this.
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nafoo Click here to enlarge
        Statute of limitations in Texas for breach of contract/fraud is 4 years. FYI.
        I like this, not as a threat but as a legal defense. ESPECIALLY if you invested a notable amount of money with SSP conducting R&D on the DCT clutch pack
      1. partlowr's Avatar
        partlowr -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Is it that time yet?

        Thanks so much Kris@SSP for delaying MY project for over a year and not delivering what was promised after missing your deadline by over a year, class act. Thanks for using me to develop clutches you sell and hanging me out to dry because your "trans build" you spent oh sooooo much time and money on doesn't work. If you actually used that time to do the work you were supposed to maybe it would function correctly?

        http://www.PorscheBoost.com/images/i...04/MkX12-1.png
        Now that is what I am talking about!!!! Ride their asses until you get results, unfortunatley that's sometimes the only way things get done.
      1. bobS's Avatar
        bobS -
        Wow, what a cluster $#@! ... My guess is that ssp hasn't had many sales on those "upgraded" clutch packs they have posted and therefor decided to pull the plug on moving forward with a investment on thier part, or that fact that they may think a lot can happen in 1 1/2 years to a car and it's not fair to go back to them? Either way it's a crappy situation.... I'd go with stock clutches, run the car and see who else is interested in tackling a upgraded dct.

        I'm sure the new turbo m cars will push people to upgrade the dct but that will be years down the road.

        I'd also look into getting your money back from them, whatever amount that is...
      1. jjv104's Avatar
        jjv104 -
        Sticky,

        I started following this thread over a year ago because of issues I was having with my DCT when my dedicated M3 track car was boosted. The problem appeared to be clutch slippage at hign speeds but in relatively low torque situations. My engine was running about 620 hp. The car is gutted with very few stock systems left. Stock guages, engine management and DCT management are about it.

        After working with the SC supplier for almost a year to solve the "slipping" problem I decided that I had invested enough time, money and wasted track time and removed the SC. The DCT has performed flawlessly since. Fortunately, the SC supplier agreed to take the SC back and refunded most of my money.

        Here's what I learned on that odessey:

        There are very few people in the world that really know something about the DCT software and how it controls the DCT. The DCT computer talks to the ECU constantly so if the ECU has issues the DCT will not work correctly. Even though the SC supplier knew my car was gutted, they did not initially realize that their software upgrades to the ECU to make the SC work properly would be effected by the the missing modules in my car. After a year of multiple upgraded flashes they finally brought in the "big gun". First they sent me a laptop with BMW diagnostic software which I connected to the ECU through OBD II. The SC supplier then tunneled into the laptop from their office in SoCal to see what was going on. They then gave control of the laptop to the "expert" in Germany who supposedly was a consultant to BMW on the DCT software. He had me start and stop the car several times and also had me put it in gear and "drive it" (the car was on a lift in my garage). I was watching the process on the screen and at one point he had the car shaking as he reprogramed the actuators for the clutches by "bumping" the clutches to reset the point at witch the clutches "kiss". The one thing that they could not explain was why the pressure to the clutches was different. One clutch was about 40% lower than the other, which was at the recommended value. The resetting seemed to help that. Even with the adjustments the car still had isssues at the track. That's when I decide to remove the SC.

        Initially we thought the clutches were slipping under load. I started researching the DCT clutches and came across multiple threads on DCT issues. I saw the problems others were having and even contacted Kris at SSP. I'm a mechanical engineer and somewhat familiar with wet clutches. I read a lot of articles about different friction materials that are used and the pros and cons. I was not convinced that what Kris supplies is the best choice. However, it is one of the most expensive choices.

        On the flip side BMW worked with the transmission supplier (Getrag I believe) and Borg-Warner to develop the DCT. They chose what they felt was the best friction material based on many factors. They also worked with Pentosin to develop the correct lubricant. Since the clutches run in the same transmission fluid that lubricates the gears the proper lubricant is critical. I'm sure BMW spent millions to come up with this transmission. Do you really think SSP has that much invested in their "fix".

        Here are my suggestions:

        You're in an uncharted area with the amount of hp you will be developing and trying to put through the DCT. If your clutch packs are burned try going back to OEM packs. If you're convinced they won't hold up there is a company in Ohio that can reline the clutches with different material. I don't remember their name but they specialize in motorcycle wet clutches. They were very knowledgeble and far cheaper than SSP. They also didn't push a super duper magical transmission fluid.


        You might also want to contact Roman at ESS Tuning. They sell a software upgrade for the DCT that supposedly increases the pressure applied to the clutch accuators. (I spent an hour on the phone discussing my issues with Roman and he convinced me that I did not need his software at my hp level. He could have easily sold me something I didn't need. That speaks volumes about ESS.) My understanding is that the hydraulic pump in the DCT develops more pressure than is required by the DCT under normal conditions. BMW reduces the pressure to the acctuators purposely, but the pressure can be increased through the software. The SC's consultant confirmed that. The issue then becomes what will be the next weak link in the transmission.

        If all else fails a different transmission might be in order. Speak with James Clay from BimmerWorld regarding a Drenth sequential racing gearbox. He can hook you up with one.

        Good luck.
      1. partlowr's Avatar
        partlowr -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MisterEm Click here to enlarge
        Wow. What a shame.

        If he is bowing out of the project, he should "bow back" the money spent on a defective non-functioning product.

        Find another shop willing to look at the trans and hire an attorney practicing in Texas.

        Anything you say in here will just be used against you unfortunately.

        Good Luck Sticky.
        I could not agree more, they should refund Sticky at least half of what he spent, esspecially considering they used him to finance the R&D and tied up his build for over a year only to deliver a bunk product. Let's see if SSP does the right thing here.
      1. Torgus's Avatar
        Torgus -
        you should nail him to a $#@!ing cross.

        FWIW you can always go about it the 'formal way' contact the BBB & http://www.ftc.gov/ If your transactions/conversations were done mainly online you could try getting the IC3 involved: http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx

        If nothing else those 3 will make it harder for him to do business. And obvious make a forum post on every website they advertise on, contact the owners of the site and let them know about who they are and their business practices.

        https://www.ripoffreport.com/ is probably a waste of time.

        Obviously if you know a lawyer you can talk to for free you could look into that depending on how much money was invested.
      1. J.J.'s Avatar
        J.J. -
        I may be wrong but from how I read the email.
        1. The trans was used to develop the clutch pack upgrade for a discounted rate or possibly free.
        2. The trans was delivered and there was no progress for over a year and a half so SSP has cut their loss and "bowed" out.
        3. Since then there have been other cars that now run and have given SSP the required feedback.
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by J.J. Click here to enlarge
        I may be wrong but from how I read the email.
        1. The trans was used to develop the clutch pack upgrade for a discounted rate or possibly free.
        2. The trans was delivered and there was no progress for over a year and a half so SSP has cut their loss and "bowed" out.
        3. Since then there have been other cars that now run and have given SSP the required feedback.
        then you read wrong
        1. no mention of prices- dont assume
        2.trans was delivered and from initial delivery required modification before progress could begin
        3. no other bmw DCTs have successfully run SSP clutches
      1. MisterEm's Avatar
        MisterEm -
        If he's bowed out of the project for over 1.5 years, why are they still pushing this part that is a failure/waste of time/money?

        http://www.sspperformance.com/produc...-disc-package/

        http://www.ebay.com/itm/SSP-DCT-Tran...item4604840bdb
      1. ajm8127's Avatar
        ajm8127 -
        I like the idea of going back to the stock fluid and the stock clutches, and seeing how well the upgraded DCT control software does at handling the increased torque. I totally agree the pump produces more pressure than the transmission needs, and the stock control software regulates it down. Turning that pressure up through custom control software should increase torque handling capacity.

        It sucks that SSP played R&D with your transmission and money, then decided the project was not lucrative and quit supporting it.
      1. J.J.'s Avatar
        J.J. -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
        then you read wrong
        1. no mention of prices- dont assume
        2.trans was delivered and from initial delivery required modification before progress could begin
        3. no other bmw DCTs have successfully run SSP clutches
        Fair enough...But isn't that what the internet is all about ? False assumptions and starting rumors ?
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by J.J. Click here to enlarge
        Fair enough...But isn't that what the internet is all about ? False assumptions and starting rumors ?
        only if your a democrat
      1. singletrack's Avatar
        singletrack -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        They won't. I really think I should just post my entire experience.
        My advice is to speak to a lawyer first. If this does end up becoming a case where you want to recover damages, then you want to be careful about what you document publicly. I'm not saying you would put up anything that is false, more that you could potentially screw up a date or something that could then be used against you in a lawsuit or arbitration. With the length of time involved here, it would not surprise me if anyone made a mistake in terms of documenting the timeline of events. You do not want something like this clouding any potential legal action.

        This sucks man. As I've always said, hope you're enjoying your car as soon as possible.
      1. singletrack's Avatar
        singletrack -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MisterEm Click here to enlarge
        If he's bowed out of the project for over 1.5 years, why are they still pushing this part that is a failure/waste of time/money?

        http://www.sspperformance.com/produc...-disc-package/

        http://www.ebay.com/itm/SSP-DCT-Tran...item4604840bdb
        Save those pages offline Sticky. If they are knowingly selling clutches that are documented to have never worked, then that is blatant fraud.
      1. singletrack's Avatar
        singletrack -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by J.J. Click here to enlarge
        I may be wrong but from how I read the email.
        1. The trans was used to develop the clutch pack upgrade for a discounted rate or possibly free.
        2. The trans was delivered and there was no progress for over a year and a half so SSP has cut their loss and "bowed" out.
        3. Since then there have been other cars that now run and have given SSP the required feedback.
        What email? Did I miss something here? Pointer please? : )
      1. Laloosh's Avatar
        Laloosh -
        Why did that email say he has not heard from you guys in over a year? So wtf was the hold up?