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    • DCT Build Part XII - Build complete, pictures of final assembly, transmission cooler, and Viton seals

      Well, this has been a rather lengthy road to completion but the transmission is basically complete. The car was dropped off by SSP last month to Gintani who should have the motor in by the end of this week. The problem is SSP mounted their trans cooler in the location the heat exchanger for the supercharger needs to go so SSP will need to come to Gintani's facility to re-run their lines as the cooler will need to go in a different location. What took so long for this update? Well, we have been waiting, and waiting, and waiting for SSP to send us details on the Viton seals that required 3 redesigns but never received the information on why these seals are superior to the stock units.

      So, I decided to do my own research and here is what I came up with. These are the stock BMW seals used in the DCT. What is wrong with them exactly? We do not know other than they apparently are not up to the task:










      Here are the Viton seals which delayed the project by 3 months. Viton is a synthetic rubber used for seals, O-rings, things of that sort. Viton was likely used as it is less susceptible to decay and already used in BMW applications such as in VANOS. Viton has much higher temperature and chemical resistance characteristics than the stock seals. Here is what they look like:










      This is the DCT cooler that was mounted by SSP up front. This needs to be moved somewhere else as the supercharger heat exchanger will need to go there. This means SSP will need to come out and run their lines again checking all their fluids and so forth before tuning can take place:














      This is the final assembly. So, the transmission is built but it took about a year longer than estimated. I believe I was as patient as possible and hopefully this will all be wrapped up in December with a built motor, built transmission, a YSI, and a ton of horsepower.






































      This article was originally published in forum thread: M3 DCT Build Journal - World's First BMW DCT Build started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 2372 Comments
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        I wouldnt be so quick to blame the Alusil, the Audi V10 has done pretty well in the new R8 and Gallardo's.
        They have more material and higher quality parts everywhere. I'm blaming the alusil construction because I've seen what has happened. They have a block on their showroom floor disassembled and you can see it yourself.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by meinauto Click here to enlarge
        Don't think the issue is Alusil - it is the design of the sleeve
        Exactly but the design of the sleeve would not matter as much if the material was stronger instead of being chosen for weight and also if there was more material but BMW went cheap.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        I don't know what their bore and cylinder spacing is, but I imagine it's more friendly to boost than the S65.
        Exactly.
      1. Jimefam's Avatar
        Jimefam -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Maybe you need to look at an S65 block?
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        What causes it to flex is using a flanged sleeve like I already told you.
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        No I didn't get confused you seem to have. I didn't mention the bore spacing, you did.
        Damn your hard headed and cant admit a simple $#@! up, I simply said you deck height would have NOTHING to do with your issue as you said was the problem and you want to make it seem like you knew what you were saying all along. DECK HEIGHT is not the amount of material around the bores lol! here is a picture for you:

        Click here to enlarge

        Now does that look like your problem, that the block is not tall enough?? No your problem is bore spacing perhaps that bmw didn't leave much of it. And before you say that's not what you said here is the quote ffs:

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Bro really? Ok here's the great job they did. Since flanged sleeves were originally used in three motors and since the deck height of the S65 block gives very little material to work with it wasn't discovered until all three motors were assembled and supercharged and tuned in the cars that by removing material from the block for flanged sleeves causes it to flex under big power. Rather than strengthening it, it weakened it.

        So, three motors disassembled and three new blocks purchased ON THEIR DIME and a new sleeve design in coordination with Darton was figured out which I will not share and not to mention something else regarding rod angles which I won't even get into as no other builder even remotely has a clue. This along with new internals and I decided I wanted higher compression so also new pistons ON THEIR DIME.

        As I said, it's a process and back when I posted everyone was advocating flanged sleeves and nobody even knew what would happen because nobody else is pushing these motors this far. So maybe starting the motor build, internal, and sleeve design over caused a slight delay? But oh, ya, terrible job they are doing GETTING IT RIGHT.

        So, all of you, kindly shut up as you don't know what you're talking about and wait. Go down to the shop or call it to ask for yourself if you need to. YOU. HAVE. NO. CLUE.
      1. Jimefam's Avatar
        Jimefam -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        But has it? The TT-G V10s that get the UGR/Dallas Performance built motor treatment are all also sleeved. I don't know what their bore and cylinder spacing is, but I imagine it's more friendly to boost than the S65. Those cars are also turbocharged, which works off exhaust gases & puts less stress on the block (the pistons & rods are more susceptible to breaking under the pressure).

        Regardless, a poorly installed cylinder sleeve can turn any block into garbage. If a shop that has no experience installing sleeves or working with a particular material (alusil vs. iron), then it shouldn't be a surprise that the install doesn't go smoothly.
        What I meant was having an Alusil block isn't in its self a disadvantage as there are very high performance motors whom use an Alusil block(of course sleeved as is any High HP aluminum motor alusil or not) with much higher performance than sticky hopes to acheive without failure using Darton sleeves also. Dont know about dallas performance but the UGR motors are Proline built and here is a few pictures of their sleeves installed:

        Click here to enlarge

        Click here to enlarge

        You can see they aren't using thick ass sleeves even though they make tremendous power. Hell the picture I posted earlier of the sleeved nissan block had more meat left between the bores and water jackets but that is where alot of people make the mistake of putting the biggest sleeve they think they can fit and it does more harm then good. Look up the Accufab Mod motor that runs bottom 6's in the 1/4 and they leave the stock sleeves in. I agree poorly specc'd or installed sleeves is a great way to ruin a build but I recall seeing an untouched S65 block and dont remember it standing out to me as fragile so I think this is a case of a problem of knowing how to sleeve a motor rather than the block having a fatal flaw(what ever it is it isn't a deck height issue lol).
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        The sleeves are iron, and while thicker will guarantee higher strength, going too thick with the sleeves can easily compromise the build. My point was that the S65 by design is a very aggressively built motor, especially compared to the V10 in the Gallardo/R8, which is why it's much more susceptible to block flex & a poor install (less room for forgiveness, aka "margin of error"). It took a while to find this, but it's a perfect example of how a poorly built motor can $#@! everything up (and unfortunately the tuner originally got the blame in this situation).



        Little background for those who don't know, this is Marcus' HPF Stage 3 M3 that was converted to run on E85 (bigger fueling system) and the ProEFI tune. Originally the tuner (Jason@ProEFI) was blamed for running an overly aggressive tune and that's why the motor went (piston/ring gapping failure). After some investigation, it turned out the engine builder did a $#@! job.
      1. JRCART's Avatar
        JRCART -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        For what would you want a longer sleeve and why that cause the block to flex????
        Exactly, why else run a longer sleeve, the only thing that comes to mind is if he is stroking it. Either that or they have some crazy hemi thing going on with some wild top end/heads.
      1. oldgixxer's Avatar
        oldgixxer -
        This thread delivers...
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        Damn your hard headed and cant admit a simple $#@! up, I simply said you deck height would have NOTHING to do with your issue as you said was the problem and you want to make it seem like you knew what you were saying all along. DECK HEIGHT is not the amount of material around the bores lol! here is a picture for you:
        Bro STFU and build and S65 and talk to me. Your theoretical nonsense is $#@!ing stupid. Period.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        Now does that look like your problem
        You're my problem right now. The block doesn't have enough material up top for flanged sleeves period blah blah blah.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
        Exactly, why else run a longer sleeve, the only thing that comes to mind is if he is stroking it. Either that or they have some crazy hemi thing going on with some wild top end/heads.
        That's the only thing that comes to mind huh?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        What I meant was having an Alusil block isn't in its self a disadvantage as there are very high performance motors whom use an Alusil block(of course sleeved as is any High HP aluminum motor alusil or not) with much higher performance than sticky hopes to acheive without failure using Darton sleeves also. Dont know about dallas performance but the UGR motors are Proline built and here is a few pictures of their sleeves installed:

        http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...0d161d83-1.jpg

        http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...48c39f4c-1.jpg

        You can see they aren't using thick ass sleeves even though they make tremendous power. Hell the picture I posted earlier of the sleeved nissan block had more meat left between the bores and water jackets but that is where alot of people make the mistake of putting the biggest sleeve they think they can fit and it does more harm then good. Look up the Accufab Mod motor that runs bottom 6's in the 1/4 and they leave the stock sleeves in. I agree poorly specc'd or installed sleeves is a great way to ruin a build but I recall seeing an untouched S65 block and dont remember it standing out to me as fragile so I think this is a case of a problem of knowing how to sleeve a motor rather than the block having a fatal flaw(what ever it is it isn't a deck height issue lol).
        I love armchair quarterbacks who know better than everyone. There just are $10k split blocks sitting in Gintani's showroom for fun. Take a walk bro. Maybe keep typing how you know better.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        Little background for those who don't know, this is Marcus' HPF Stage 3 M3 that was converted to run on E85 (bigger fueling system) and the ProEFI tune. Originally the tuner (Jason@ProEFI) was blamed for running an overly aggressive tune and that's why the motor went (piston/ring gapping failure). After some investigation, it turned out the engine builder did a $#@! job.
        No kidding and was it sleeves that may have been the problem? Oh, no way.
      1. oldgixxer's Avatar
        oldgixxer -
        Sticky how much HP can a bone stock block handle?
      1. Jimefam's Avatar
        Jimefam -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Bro STFU and build and S65 and talk to me. Your theoretical nonsense is $#@!ing stupid. Period.



        You're my problem right now. The block doesn't have enough material up top for flanged sleeves period blah blah blah.
        Lol a little butthurt aren't you, think of it this way now you know what deck height is a can properly use it in a sentence.
      1. funkmobster's Avatar
        funkmobster -
        This is what Gintani wrote in December 2011:

        Most of the stock components in this motor (S65) are not forged, the stock block is not sleeved. The S65 was designed to be a light and naturally aspirated high reving motor. So when we decided to start adding high boost to a motor like the S65 we already had taken this into consideration.

        The stock S65 heads flow very well from factory and the rev limiter set on them is still actually very conservitave. Our company M3 vehicle has a rev limiter set way above the factory limit. The power loss up top is all due to tuning, nothing to do with the flow of the heads. The factory heads are capable to support well over 700whp.

        What many people dont know is that from the day we finished and started testing our bolt on SC kit back in 2008, we had already taken apart an S65 motor and started doing heavy R&D and testing for High boost applications. We tried several different set ups for high boost, from using a stock block with lowered compression Mahle pistons to Sleeving the block and trying different brands of Forged pistons until we found a successful combination. The problem we found when using just the stock aluminum block and Mahle pistons was they could not handle the boost levels we were trying to accomplish. When doing our testing we saw signs of the cylinders becoming deformed and leaving marks on the sides and skirts of the pistons. This was caused because the aluminum block was flexing too much when pushed hard. That is when we started sleeving the stock aluminum block with cast iron sleeves and since have been able to push boost levels upwards of 20lbs thus far.

        Some believe sleeving an aluminum block with cast iron sleeves weakens the block, but we beg to differ. We speak from actual experience and testing, not from opinions and theories that may be bias. We would not be doing this if it wasn't neccesary. Sure you cut away at the stock block but you are re-inforcing it with Cast iron which is much stronger than aluminum. We also would never consider using stock rods on the boost levels we are pushing and trying to accomplish. Why take apart the whole motor, build it and leave the stock rods? Doesn't make sense to us. We have also changed and updated a lot of other stock parts that we found as we went along were not getting the job done. We are not gonna take short cuts just to save our customers a couple hundread dollars on a 30k+ build.

        Our goal is to push this motor as much as possible and do what everyone calls "impossible". So far we have been very successful with our motor builds and we are still to this day working on pushing even more boost than what we have made available to the public. We are far from being done. We want M3 owners to be able to not only compete but be able to defeat any other supercar or F/I car with claimed 800+hp. We know we are the under dogs because we havent been around as long as other companies have but I can assure you we are here to stay. We are doing whatever it takes to accomplish our goals and prove our products are just as good if not better than our competitors. We are hard at work everyday and we hope to expand are FI options in 2012. We want to offer not only more power but road/track tested reliability.


        So it seems they are testing the high boost version since 2008. Its 2013 for christ's sake and they still haven't figured this out??

        My conclusion would be that this engine is just a piece of junk and not worth for high power figures unless you create your own block.
        Oh and i would have concluded this in 2009 by the way.

        So if the N54 isn't a 2JZ , this S65 sure ain't either.

        Think where you would be now if u would have invested all that money in a nice GTR.
      1. JRCART's Avatar
        JRCART -
        http://www.vacmotorsports.com/blog/a...ur-bmw-engine/

        Holy $#@!, look at these pics, there is really no space between cylinders on these blocks. Sticky you were not kidding.
      1. Jimefam's Avatar
        Jimefam -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
        [video]http://www.vacmotorsports.com/blog/are-cylinder-sleeves-bad-for-your-bmw-engine/[/url]

        Holy $#@!, look at these pics, there is really no space between cylinders on these blocks. Sticky you were not kidding.
        Not much different than a lot of aluminum blocks, look at the Gallardo pics I posted above they are the same way and out of the same alusil and make twice the HP sticky could hope for. Its more of an improperly specc'd sleeve probably. Hell there are a lot of motors who have no space between bores and even go into the water jacket without compromising the block.

        Click here to enlarge

        Or just use a mid sleeve
        Click here to enlarge
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by funkmobster Click here to enlarge
        So it seems they are testing the high boost version since 2008. Its 2013 for christ's sake and they still haven't figured this out??
        It's part of pushing the envelope. The original data might of revealed that just sleeving the block is fine for the V3 blower (the blower used by every kit utilizing a Vortech blower), but it's not enough reinforcement to run a YSI (what Stick is using). This is part of modding cars, there's always going to be someone who wants more, but the brilliance of modern HP builds is that tuners try to make them as "turn key" (reliable) as possible. The R&D that goes into the "next stage" is naturally going to take time, and sometimes developments take more research than anticipated when new problems reveal themselves.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by funkmobster Click here to enlarge
        Think where you would be now if u would have invested all that money in a nice GTR.
        But not everybody wants a GTR.... Just like not everyone wants a Supra, a Turbo E46 M3, a TT-G or TT-Viper. BUT luckily because they are some very dedicated enthusiasts on each platform, they take the torch and lead the platform into it's next big development (a more aggressive supercharger/turbo kit). It's these enthusiasts that we can thank for taking cars like the Supra, E46 M3, Gallardo + Vipers from their tame stock power levels, to 1.5k-2.k+ WHP monsters. There's no need to be a negative $#@!ing nancy and just $#@! on Sticky (or anybody's) build thread when they're pushing their cars and the motor into unknown territories; they're doing a favor for the community & you should never want to see any vendor fail.
      1. MisterEm's Avatar
        MisterEm -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        But not everybody wants a GTR.... Just like not everyone wants a Supra, a Turbo E46 M3, a TT-G or TT-Viper. BUT luckily because they are some very dedicated enthusiasts on each platform, they take the torch and lead the platform into it's next big development (a more aggressive supercharger/turbo kit). It's these enthusiasts that we can thank for taking cars like the Supra, E46 M3, Gallardo + Vipers from their tame stock power levels, to 1.5k-2.k+ WHP monsters. There's no need to be a negative $#@!ing nancy and just $#@! on Sticky (or anybody's) build thread when they're pushing their cars and the motor into unknown territories; they're doing a favor for the community & you should never want to see any vendor fail.
        The logic is strong on this one. Its not my money or my car, but I am very curious to see what this thing will do.

        Lets hope somebody stresses the limits of the F30 M car like this one for the betterment of the community.
      1. MrClean335i's Avatar
        MrClean335i -
        Aren't build threads suppose to have updates of the build? This build thread sucks.