What an M156 (63 AMG) ECU/computer ruined by a tuner looks like and how to fix it

LOL, looks familar. Epic Fail for the tuner(to remain nameless), looks like your "security" was not too secure afterall.

LOL..."chances are there are a few M156 owners ecus that look like this" come on, just let the cat out of the bag or I will. This could win you a $#@!ing pulitzer prize Sticky.

Did the circuit board overheat ? How was this found ?? I can only assume the tuner who did this was attempting to make sure no one else could use a BDM to pull the file...What kind of a $#@!ing hack would do this ?? Can anyone say FIRE HAZZARD ??????

Originally Posted by JRCART

LOL..."chances are there are a few M156 owners ecus that look like this" come on, just let the cat out of the bag or I will. This could win you a $#@!ing pulitzer prize Sticky.

I have no desire to hurt anyone and only help those that may be affected which we obviously know is a decent amount of people.

Originally Posted by LZH

I can only assume the tuner who did this was attempting to make sure no one else could use a BDM to pull the file.

Exactly. It's fine if there is consent but to do it without telling someone is a major no-no. Would I be furious? Yes.

Although I do believe in the holy power of CNC, I have a hard time believing you could mill this goo of the circuit board without damaging the components.
The tolerances involved (circuitboard, soldered components, screwed down board) are such that the best chance would be to mill the goo down to the lacker protecting the circuit board, scraping off what was left of the goo inbetween the copper leads, and resoldering the SMD components lost in the milling process. I really would like to see what was left of the ECU after milling, not just one loosely clamped down ECU on a milling bed.

Originally Posted by DavidV

Although I do believe in the holy power of CNC, I have a hard time believing you could mill this goo of the circuit board without damaging the components.

It was done.

Originally Posted by DavidV

Although I do believe in the holy power of CNC, I have a hard time believing you could mill this goo of the circuit board without damaging the components.
The tolerances involved (circuitboard, soldered components, screwed down board) are such that the best chance would be to mill the goo down to the lacker protecting the circuit board, scraping off what was left of the goo inbetween the copper leads, and resoldering the SMD components lost in the milling process. I really would like to see what was left of the ECU after milling, not just one loosely clamped down ECU on a milling bed.

It was done, trust me.

So who epoxied the ECU?

Originally Posted by oldgixxer

So who epoxied the ECU?

There is ONLY one tuner that I know of that uses that tactic

I'll let Jrcart or sticky drop their intitials

Originally Posted by oldgixxer

So who epoxied the ECU?

Its not epoxy...its a "security feature" LMAO

Honestly, I have no idea what wattage an ECU of that caliber is running, but if they are calling themselves "tuners" - they have a problem.

That is probably one of the more laughable things I have seen someone do to try to prevent someone from pulling a chip off a board... Thank the lord no one was hurt. In all honesty, he should recall every single one of his ECUs that he "secured" to the board.

That looks like the mountain from Close Encounters of the Third Kind.

Originally Posted by oldgixxer

So who epoxied the ECU?

Without knowing with certainty, given the individuals posting and their history, this almost has to be MHP. FWIW, this exact issue (with a picture) was addressed already in a Benzboost thread, further down the first page:

http://www.benzboost.com/showthread....-regarding-MHP

Excerpt:

Yes we at MHP use a special epoxy to cover the BDM pads so theives/hacks can't get to the files as easily. This is unfortunately necessary because both BDM and CMD encryption are incredibly weak. Here's the rub: With the correct solvent and tools I can remove my epoxy in 15-45 minutes depending on how much I use. Others that don't have the correct solvent/tools cannot which is the point. So if you're a legit customer and just want the best tuning, you have nothing to fear. If a customer were ever to send back the ECU to go back to stock (has never happened to date) I can remove all traces of the epoxy (unlike the burnt ecu hardware in Steve's car) in 2-3hrs tops. I've practiced as much on spare ECUs so I know this to be true.

Here is a pic of one of the ECU's I've done and what my epoxy looks like. I have no idea what pictures Jeremy posted on MBW as I can't see them so I wanted to post my own:



Like I said, if you're a legit customer it's not a problem you'll ever have to worry about, if you're trying to steal IP then it's going to ruin your day.

Of note, the second-to-last sentence in the first quote... if one wishes to have MHP's tuning taken off of his ECU and put back to stock, one is encouraged to send the ECU back to MHP for tuning/epoxy removal. So... why is this one being CNC'd? Did the owner of the ECU contact MHP to have the ECU put back to stock? If yes, and Andy told him to pound sand - that's newsworthy. If the owner did, and Andy said "sure thing, send it over and I'll take care of it" but then the owner decided to have it CNC'd locally - that too would be newsworthy.

Sticky, FWIW, you're starting to come across like a scorned lover. This issue was already discussed here at length - your new thread title "ruined by a tuner" sure sounds bitter. Especially when, later you post the ECU "was able to be salvaged" - which is it? Ruined or salvaged? If you felt this new thread sheds some additional light on this topic, you easily could've titled it "Technical Bulletin: CNC machines can successfully remove ECU epoxy" if presenting a professional appearance is of any value to you.

Regardless, this is your sandbox, you'll do as you see fit... carry on.

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

Without knowing with certainty, given the individuals posting and their history, this almost has to be MHP. FWIW, this exact issue (with a picture) was addressed already in a Benzboost thread, further down the first page:

http://www.benzboost.com/showthread....-regarding-MHP

Excerpt:







Of note, the second-to-last sentence in the first quote... if one wishes to have MHP's tuning taken off of his ECU and put back to stock, one is encouraged to send the ECU back to MHP for tuning/epoxy removal. So... why is this one being CNC'd? Did the owner of the ECU contact MHP to have the ECU put back to stock? If yes, and Andy told him to pound sand - that's newsworthy. If the owner did, and Andy said "sure thing, send it over and I'll take care of it" but then the owner decided to have it CNC'd locally - that too would be newsworthy.

Sticky, FWIW, you're starting to come across like a scorned lover. This issue was already discussed here at length - your new thread title "ruined by a tuner" sure sounds bitter. Especially when, later you post the ECU "was able to be salvaged" - which is it? Ruined or salvaged? If you felt this new thread sheds some additional light on this topic, you easily could've titled it "Technical Bulletin: CNC machines can successfully remove ECU epoxy" if presenting a professional appearance is of any value to you.

Regardless, this is your sandbox, you'll do as you see fit... carry on.

Bottom line, the Tune/IP might be the property of the tuner but the board itself is NOT. No tuner has the right to put epoxy on a board for "security". IP should be addressed with encryption security, not a makeshift physical barrier of epoxy becuase the tuner can not figure out a way to properly protect his IP. What if said tuner ever went out of business, how would customers have the epoxy removed and flashed back to stock then? IF you want to buy into that BS that's your right, but it makes you look a fool IMO. There's absolutely no excuse for this being done to an ECU board.

One more thing...There is absolutely nothing wrong with the title of this thread. What if I laid a nice dollop of epoxy on the hood of your car? Would you consider it ruined or would you say, it's not ruined, I can just scrape it off and repaint my hood????? The same thing here, really no difference at all, it took a great deal of work and time to get the epoxy off and the board back to usable condition.

Originally Posted by JRCART

Bottom line, the Tune/IP might be the property of the tuner but the board itself is NOT. No tuner has the right to put epoxy on a board for "security". IP should be addressed with encryption security, not a makeshift physical barrier of epoxy becuase the tuner can not figure out a way to properly protect his IP. What if said tuner ever went out of business, how would customers have the epoxy removed and flashed back to stock then? IF you want to buy into that BS that's your right, but it makes you look a fool IMO. There's absolutely no excuse for this being done to an ECU board.

I don't disagree with the logic in your post. Frankly, while all tuners tend to lose sleep about lost/stolen IP, I've yet to see any legal conclusions suggesting the tune itself constitutes IP for the tuner in the classic sense. Since, the real "IP" is at the MB/AMG level, and the tuner is simply modifying existing code. Furthermore, once validly and legally purchased, the customer might have every right to do whatever they wish with the product (is modifying code a product or a service?) they purchased, post-sale.

If someone wants to start an "Intellectual Property: legal position and relevance to the tuning industry" thread, it may be best to discuss further there.

Originally Posted by JRCART

One more thing...There is absolutely nothing wrong with the title of this thread. What if I laid a nice dollop of epoxy on the hood of your car? Would you consider it ruined or would you say, it's not ruined, I can just scrape it off and repaint my hood????? The same thing here, really no difference at all, it took a great deal of work and time to get the epoxy off and the board back to usable condition.

The definition of "ruin," literally, is "to damage beyond repair." Ruined is definitive and final. Ergo, something salvageable is not ruined. Damaged, perhaps, but not ruined. Or the wishy-washy "essentially ruined" phrase (that doesn't even make sense) used in the first post. We get enough sensationalist drivel in the mainstream media...

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

I don't disagree with the logic in your post. Frankly, while all tuners tend to lose sleep about lost/stolen IP, I've yet to see any legal conclusions suggesting the tune itself constitutes IP for the tuner in the classic sense. Since, the real "IP" is at the MB/AMG level, and the tuner is simply modifying existing code. Furthermore, once validly and legally purchased, the customer might have every right to do whatever they wish with the product (is modifying code a product or a service?) they purchased, post-sale.

If someone wants to start an "Intellectual Property: legal position and relevance to the tuning industry" thread, it may be best to discuss further there.

This thread is not about IP, I just brought it up becuase that is clearly what the tuner in this instance was trying to protect. Whether or not a tuners "tune" is legally considered IP I have no clue whatsoever, maybe Yomamma69 can chime in since he is an internet attorney(I beleive I recall him saying that) and can probably give us more insight on IP law but what I do know is that the vehichle owner owns the physical ECU board and no tuner has the right to physically alter that board in a way thay might render it useless down the road....PERIOD!

Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM

The definition of "ruin," literally, is "to damage beyond repair." Ruined is definitive and final. Ergo, something salvageable is not ruined. Damaged, perhaps, but not ruined. Or the wishy-washy "essentially ruined" phrase (that doesn't even make sense) used in the first post. We get enough sensationalist drivel in the mainstream media...

I don't agree with that, but I guess we are all allowed to have different opinions, right?

Where do you live? I'm going to stop by and drop a dollop of epoxy on the hood of your car just like I said...would that damage the paint or ruin the paint? My guess is that you would say ruin if the shoe was on your foot, right? Sure you can fix it, take it to a body shop where they would scrape it down, strip and sand your entire hood and repaint it...fixed, right? Hopefully they will get that color match just perfect. Maybe the finish will be as good as the factory finish, but then again maybe not. Maybe the body shop will keep things on the downlow and not enter a CARFAX report on your car that says it's been painted. Maybe when you go to trade in your car or sell it you won't get dinged on the value should a CARFAX report show that the cars hood was painted. If someone sees painted hood on a CARFAX they are going to instantly think accident, right?

You "ruined vs damaged" theory is plausable but try that shoe on for yourself now and see how it fits.


...and for the record, you brought up MHP not me or Sticky.