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    • DCT Build Part XI - Final pictures of finished M3 DCT pan

      In the previous weeks we brought you the details on the DCT oil pan upgrade and the pictures of the machining process. We are happy to say the final design has been completed and here are the pictures of the finished product. Once again, this will allow 2 additional liters of fluid as well as the capability to connect to an external cooling source as you can see from the openings. Pricing details for the complete DCT cooling kit as well as components will be coming next, stay tuned.


































      This article was originally published in forum thread: M3 DCT Build Journal - World's First BMW DCT Build started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 2887 Comments
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Serps Click here to enlarge
        Sticky posted a separate update showing his works too
      1. MisterEm's Avatar
        MisterEm -
        K.I.S.S. method strikes again.
      1. PEI330Ci's Avatar
        PEI330Ci -
        I think this is ridiculous, all of it.

        There will never be a truthful side to this debacle, because so many chefs have been in the kitchen.

        My experience with technical issues in general is that there is never a clear cause. The more you dig, the more variables you find that could contribute to widely varying outcomes. I do this type of investigation for a living, with huge amounts of $$$ at stake, and I've never seen a beneficial situation from hostility.

        All of this mud-slinging between parties isn't benifiting anyone. (Unless you enjoy public spats)

        While an OEM transmission is going to handle the new power output for a little while, fatigue and wear is going to surface. It's just a matter of time; even 2000hp drag racing transmissions have failures. What I would do if I was working with this type of transmission, is look into materials processing. There is a ton of processes that can make existing OEM parts stronger, and more durable, without making them out of new and un-tested materials. Companies like Sulzer, WPC, and others with Cryo and REM polishing treatments are hugely successful in the motorsports environment. This stuff works.

        For these clutch disks, there is just as much science involved in the transmission fluid as in the clutch material itself. Using different friction modifiers will affect how the clutch works, regardless of electronic control strategy and line pressures. I mention this just as an example of a variable that can leave you asking more questions than are answered...

        I guess a person needs to ask where they get their enjoyment from? Building something that works, or enormously drawn out public debates.

        Some people may not like what I'm saying, and that's fine. I'm probably contributing to the drama that I complain about by making this post.....
      1. Commanderwiggin's Avatar
        Commanderwiggin -
        ^ Risk cause analysis...like you said there are too many chef's in the kitchen and it is a system of reasons that the setup never worked to begin with.

        Regardless the lack of support by SSP and the time consumed is a fact...those reasons alone are enough to not do business with them IMO.
      1. c32AMG-DTM's Avatar
        c32AMG-DTM -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin Click here to enlarge
        Regardless the lack of support by SSP and the time consumed is a fact...those reasons alone are enough to not do business with them IMO.
        It is worrisome - certainly, and worth considering before buying hardware from such a vendor.

        However, if the whole build had been a little more timely, maybe the support would've been better... no way to know.

        Sticky posted that he paid in full for his motor build back in 2010 (IIRC) by selling his old S/C kit and giving the cash proceeds to Gintani. As far as I can tell, the motor build wasn't even started until late 2012 or maybe even early 2013. Sticky's good with the delays, and it's his car so that's all that matters - but me? I'd have been pissed with my shop if I'd paid them in full for something and they didn't even start the agreed-upon work for 2+ years after being paid. You don't need the trans in the car to build the motor...
      1. MisterEm's Avatar
        MisterEm -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
        I think this is ridiculous, all of it.

        There will never be a truthful side to this debacle, because so many chefs have been in the kitchen.

        My experience with technical issues in general is that there is never a clear cause. The more you dig, the more variables you find that could contribute to widely varying outcomes. I do this type of investigation for a living, with huge amounts of $$$ at stake, and I've never seen a beneficial situation from hostility.

        All of this mud-slinging between parties isn't benifiting anyone. (Unless you enjoy public spats)

        While an OEM transmission is going to handle the new power output for a little while, fatigue and wear is going to surface. It's just a matter of time; even 2000hp drag racing transmissions have failures. What I would do if I was working with this type of transmission, is look into materials processing. There is a ton of processes that can make existing OEM parts stronger, and more durable, without making them out of new and un-tested materials. Companies like Sulzer, WPC, and others with Cryo and REM polishing treatments are hugely successful in the motorsports environment. This stuff works.

        For these clutch disks, there is just as much science involved in the transmission fluid as in the clutch material itself. Using different friction modifiers will affect how the clutch works, regardless of electronic control strategy and line pressures. I mention this just as an example of a variable that can leave you asking more questions than are answered...

        I guess a person needs to ask where they get their enjoyment from? Building something that works, or enormously drawn out public debates.

        Some people may not like what I'm saying, and that's fine. I'm probably contributing to the drama that I complain about by making this post.....
        Insightful as always Adam. Couldn't agree with you more. +rep to you.
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
        However, if the whole build had been a little more timely, maybe the support would've been better... no way to know.

        Sticky posted that he paid in full for his motor build back in 2010 (IIRC) by selling his old S/C kit and giving the cash proceeds to Gintani. As far as I can tell, the motor build wasn't even started until late 2012 or maybe even early 2013. Sticky's good with the delays, and it's his car so that's all that matters - but me? I'd have been pissed with my shop if I'd paid them in full for something and they didn't even start the agreed-upon work for 2+ years after being paid. You don't need the trans in the car to build the motor...
        You really didn't read the thread did you? Gintani discovered after building, testing and researching their own Stage 3 with the YSI that the S65 was having block-flex issues, which took additional time for R&D to discover a viable solution that worked with the Alusil block. He's also adjusted the piston/stroke length without increasing displacement, something never before done on the S65.

        Also, Gintani isn't going to release a product for consumers until it's 100% been tested + proven to be a turnkey operation. How irresponsible would it be for Gintani (or any vendor) to just sell a product because it's in demand and never conduct in-depth testing (or better yet, use the customer's driving experience as their "testing").
      1. Njz's Avatar
        Njz -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        How irresponsible would it be for Gintani (or any vendor) to just sell a product because it's in demand and never conduct in-depth testing (or better yet, use the customer's driving experience as their "testing").
        I am sorry but I just saw shiv's entire singles project flash before my eyes when I read this part lol.
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Njz Click here to enlarge
        I am sorry but I just saw shiv's entire singles project flash before my eyes when I read this part lol.
        Click here to enlarge
      1. c32AMG-DTM's Avatar
        c32AMG-DTM -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
        You really didn't read the thread did you? Gintani discovered after building, testing and researching their own Stage 3 with the YSI that the S65 was having block-flex issues, which took additional time for R&D to discover a viable solution that worked with the Alusil block. He's also adjusted the piston/stroke length without increasing displacement, something never before done on the S65.

        Also, Gintani isn't going to release a product for consumers until it's 100% been tested + proven to be a turnkey operation. How irresponsible would it be for Gintani (or any vendor) to just sell a product because it's in demand and never conduct in-depth testing (or better yet, use the customer's driving experience as their "testing").
        Who said anything about a product release? Of course significant testing would have to occur before a "package" or "kit" would be released.

        Here, I'll make it simple, since apparently I'm having a tough time reading the thread: when did Sticky pay Gintani in full for his motor build, and when did they finish the first motor build attempt? Since you've followed along more closely, I'm sure you can help with those dates.
      1. Commanderwiggin's Avatar
        Commanderwiggin -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
        Who said anything about a product release? Of course significant testing would have to occur before a "package" or "kit" would be released.

        Here, I'll make it simple, since apparently I'm having a tough time reading the thread: when did Sticky pay Gintani in full for his motor build, and when did they finish the first motor build attempt? Since you've followed along more closely, I'm sure you can help with those dates.
        If you care so much read the $#@!ing thread...useless post.
      1. benzy89's Avatar
        benzy89 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
        Who said anything about a product release? Of course significant testing would have to occur before a "package" or "kit" would be released.

        Here, I'll make it simple, since apparently I'm having a tough time reading the thread: when did Sticky pay Gintani in full for his motor build, and when did they finish the first motor build attempt? Since you've followed along more closely, I'm sure you can help with those dates.
        Post #1530 on Page 62 of the thread from back in February....

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Since flanged sleeves were originally used in three motors and since the deck height of the S65 block gives very little material to work with it wasn't discovered until all three motors were assembled and supercharged and tuned in the cars that by removing material from the block for flanged sleeves causes it to flex under big power. Rather than strengthening it, it weakened it.

        So, three motors disassembled and three new blocks purchased ON THEIR DIME and a new sleeve design in coordination with Darton was figured out which I will not share and not to mention something else regarding rod angles which I won't even get into as no other builder even remotely has a clue. This along with new internals and I decided I wanted higher compression so also new pistons ON THEIR DIME.

        As I said, it's a process and back when I posted everyone was advocating flanged sleeves and nobody even knew what would happen because nobody else is pushing these motors this far. So maybe starting the motor build, internal, and sleeve design over caused a slight delay? But oh, ya, terrible job they are doing GETTING IT RIGHT.

        Next time make sure you have the whole story before you decide to comment. That would also require this information though, regarding the Gintani Stage 3 YSI 6MT Shop Car back in Feb '12. The block flex issue was really discovered after the car had been run for a while, testing had been done & the tear down begun to see how the internals were responding to the tune, the YSI boost & driving abuse. Hear we are about ~1 year later and Sticky's car is up & running EXCEPT for the upgraded transmission (which was not under Gintani's control).


        BTW -- The C32 AMG is an embarrassment to AMG cars, especially when you consider the M113 5.4L supercharged V8 was out at the same time.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin Click here to enlarge
        Regardless the lack of support by SSP and the time consumed is a fact...those reasons alone are enough to not do business with them IMO.
        Exactly.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
        It is worrisome - certainly, and worth considering before buying hardware from such a vendor.

        However, if the whole build had been a little more timely, maybe the support would've been better... no way to know.

        Sticky posted that he paid in full for his motor build back in 2010 (IIRC) by selling his old S/C kit and giving the cash proceeds to Gintani. As far as I can tell, the motor build wasn't even started until late 2012 or maybe even early 2013. Sticky's good with the delays, and it's his car so that's all that matters - but me? I'd have been pissed with my shop if I'd paid them in full for something and they didn't even start the agreed-upon work for 2+ years after being paid. You don't need the trans in the car to build the motor...
        The motor was rebuilt. The first sleeve design didn't work. I mean I can only say so much. After these Stage III cars are all out there we can delve into the whole S65 building fiasco. Nobody has motors on this level for a reason.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
        Who said anything about a product release? Of course significant testing would have to occur before a "package" or "kit" would be released.

        Here, I'll make it simple, since apparently I'm having a tough time reading the thread: when did Sticky pay Gintani in full for his motor build, and when did they finish the first motor build attempt? Since you've followed along more closely, I'm sure you can help with those dates.
        You need to understand that there are three people all basically doing the Stage III's at the same time. So basically three setups got rebuilt. Mine never even got to start I don't think before having to be rebuilt although they put the motor back in and everything but there was no point.

        The motor was paid for back when I sold my original kit. Then after that I paid for the YSI, new manifold, new exhaust, new meth system, cage, racing seats, gauges, labor, and all kinds of other stuff. I don't even know how this all keeps adding up but it does the longer the car sits there. Next thing will be a new trans, lines, etc.

        Did Gintani take longer than expected? Yep, way longer. But at least they are getting it right.
      1. c32AMG-DTM's Avatar
        c32AMG-DTM -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        You need to understand that there are three people all basically doing the Stage III's at the same time. So basically three setups got rebuilt. Mine never even got to start I don't think before having to be rebuilt although they put the motor back in and everything but there was no point.

        The motor was paid for back when I sold my original kit. Then after that I paid for the YSI, new manifold, new exhaust, new meth system, cage, racing seats, gauges, labor, and all kinds of other stuff. I don't even know how this all keeps adding up but it does the longer the car sits there. Next thing will be a new trans, lines, etc.

        Did Gintani take longer than expected? Yep, way longer. But at least they are getting it right.
        Thank you - and yes it's commendable that they (Gintani) are seeing this through to the end, regardless of the duration.

        I just wonder if the motor-side of things had been ready once SSP first finished the trans, if SSP might have been more receptive to helping out if any issues were encountered. I know from your comments there were of course valid reasons why the rebuilt trans sat around for a year and a half uninstalled/not running, but I can also see why that might make the trans builder reluctant to do anything if/when something goes wrong.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
        I just wonder if the motor-side of things had been ready once SSP first finished the trans, if SSP might have been more receptive to helping out if any issues were encountered
        It was finished. Nobody knew another motor build would take place at that time. We ended up waiting on SSP for over a year doing nothing with the motor really until later the sleeve design was figured out by one of the other guys.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
        but I can also see why that might make the trans builder reluctant to do anything if/when something goes wrong.
        Why? If the trans is done what is the problem? We plugged in an OEM trans that had been sitting around and it works fine so I don't see the issue.
      1. PEI330Ci's Avatar
        PEI330Ci -
        This is just a presumption, but from my experience with other control units, there is usually a maximum allowable error for certain parameters.

        I wonder if the total clutch package thickness might be an issue, as the "teach in" values would read different from OEM then. If you had access to them, it would be easy to stack and measure outside of the transmission....
      1. NikB316's Avatar
        NikB316 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge



        BTW -- The C32 AMG is an embarrassment to AMG cars, especially when you consider the M113 5.4L supercharged V8 was out at the same time.

        LOL the C32 was one of the biggest POS put out not only by AMG but Benz as a whole. I used to rag on that car all the time. Good memories. I give that poster credit for publically admitting to owning one.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        This isn't about the C32 guys who cares.