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    • Vishnu Procede N54 misfire mystery solved? CPS offsetting to blame?


      With all the discussion on the CPS offsetting lately, I have been delving deeper into this topic and contacting various tuners to get to the bottom of it. Now, we all know the Procede has had and still has misfire problems and the JB has not had this problem. As I have learned more about the impact of this system I have spoken to a couple tuners who pointed me in the right direction.

      What is the major difference between the two? CPS offsetting.

      Why would CPS offsetting cause misfires? Well, if the CPS offsetting is based on load and not static it will wreak havoc with the misfire detection of the DME. Here is how the Procede does CPS offsetting:

      So, the more load the more offset. Why is this a problem? The ECU uses the CPS signal to mesaure the acceleration of the crankshaft. If the acceleration value is outside what the DME expects, it is interpreted as a misfire. So when the ECU goes to measure the crank speed and this signal is changed, boom, misfire.

      Why has this been difficult to pin down? Because the Procede varies the offset and it isn't static. CPS offsetting isn't the right way to reduce ignition timing but the only option the Procede really has, as do all N54 piggybacks. Since the number isn't static misfires will happen based on a ton of variables that affect the ECU, load, weather, rpm, VANOS, etc. This is why there is no rhyme or reason to it only the constant of CPS offset.

      Further evidence that supports this theory is that Terry of BMS has recently been doing CPS Offset Testing and has been able to induce misfires with the CPS offsetting. So, hopefully this clears things up for people and to be noted a static offset may be best to prevent misfires. Ideally though, tuners we have contacted stated they believe such a vital part of the way the factory DME functions should not be messed with due to its impact on VANOS and the knock detection system.
      This article was originally published in forum thread: Procede misfire mystery solved? CPS offsetting to blame? started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 188 Comments
      1. Jimefam's Avatar
        Jimefam -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        This is true, 500 whp through the entire powerband and no misfires.

        My belief and that of some other tuners is that this is all CPS related. Terry has induced misfires by messing with the CPS. I believe the connection is clear due to how what offsetting does the ECU.
        Damn 500whp throughout the ENTIRE powerband thats pretty crazy, Ive never seen a dyno graph like that. Sticky do you have any proof that the misfires are definitively CPS related? I imagine you have pretty overwhelming evidence to create this thread and promote it to the front page and all. No way thats only based off your belief and other tuners who haven't commented on here right? I'm pretty sure you can induce misfires by messing with anything enough as Terry pointed out in this thread.
      1. shiv@vishnu's Avatar
        shiv@vishnu -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
        so, after i just uploaded them to the dyno thread, i noticed that it looks like he was having some major issues with those runs.. couldnt rap it out past 6200 rpm, and the ones that did.. uh.. looked like something was going on.. care to elaborate?
        Yes, above 500whp, he was getting ignition break-up. Up to 470-480whp, no issue. With either tune.

        Didn't you have a 504whp run or something? One that tripped the overboost limit before the run finished? Could you post this?

        shiv
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
        Yes, above 500whp, he was getting ignition break-up. Up to 470-480whp, no issue. With either tune.

        Didn't you have a 504whp run or something? One that tripped the overboost limit before the run finished? Could you post this?

        shiv
        ignition breakup? is that a more technical term for something else Click here to enlarge

        yea, 502 when it tipped 21 psi, the boost failsafe limit. it is posted in my original Rb dyno tuning thread here, but that wasnt ignition. you can see in the LOG that I attached with the pic, that boost jumped right then and there with that 502 bump. nothing to hide Click here to enlarge

        http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...-testing-today
      1. Terry@BMS's Avatar
        Terry@BMS -
        This was the last run we did remotely before giving up to address the fuel situation. I believe this was on pump gas, single nozzle, 70/30 mix, etc. No real effort was made to optimize power or power delivery as the focus was purely on fueling. I also put a couple runs from around 17psi on there as well for comparison. The first I heard of any misfires with it was when Shiv was doing the pulls and it seemed more of an aberration than anything. But at those power levels there are clearly many things to address. Fueling and ignition system strength being among the the top of the list.

        As I said before misfiring is a symptom that can come from many sources. None of this explains why 15-17psi stock turbo cars are misfiring.

        Attachment 5982
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
        Ask Ultimateracing335 about his top end misfire when he was running the jb4. No CPS offsetting there. And a bit shy of 500whp. On the dyno and on the road.

        Shiv
        I think you are correct that if pushing the factory systems to the limit you could run into misfires although I have not spoken him. Would not mind his perspective. It's not like every misfire ever recorded in the history of the N54 can be attributed to the Procede, just the majority.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
        As I said before misfiring is a symptom that can come from many sources. None of this explains why 15-17psi stock turbo cars are misfiring.
        These are cars using CPS offset, correct?
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Shiv, you may have missed this, so ill quote myself. As an enthusiast,and for the greater good, I am willing to set aside certain issues:
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
        I want you to come custom tune my car at a local dyno, try out the v5 on it. ill pay for it all, the new V5 ( with the competitors tune discount) and dyno time. again you have my info, lets do it asap. Id like to see how my car does on AFR's, and timing, and of course, the solved misfire problem. we can streamcast it live allday so noone can complain about half-truths and yada yada..
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        Damn 500whp throughout the ENTIRE powerband thats pretty crazy, Ive never seen a dyno graph like that. Sticky do you have any proof that the misfires are definitively CPS related? I imagine you have pretty overwhelming evidence to create this thread and promote it to the front page and all. No way thats only based off your belief and other tuners who haven't commented on here right? I'm pretty sure you can induce misfires by messing with anything enough as Terry pointed out in this thread.
        Well, the evidence is rather overwhelming in my opinion. We have BMW tuners all saying the same thing. We have knowledge of what delaying the signal to offset can do. We have evidence of CPS offset cars running the Procede misfiring. We have evidence of BMS inducing a misfire due to CPS offset. How much more is really needed? Come to your own conclusion.

        Look at all the factors that can cause a misfire and you will know what can induce a misfire. Shiv himself has mentioned some of those. Let's not make it seem like the only way to cause a misfire is to run a Procede as that is ridiculous. However, there is a constant of CPS offset cars having misfires.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
        Shiv, you may have missed this, so ill quote myself. As an enthusiast,and for the greater good, I am willing to set aside certain issues:
        Don't you know any guys with a V5? Oh wait, you can't use it because of the locking thing now implemented right?
      1. Terry@BMS's Avatar
        Terry@BMS -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        These are cars using CPS offset, correct?
        procede cars. So presumably.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
        procede cars. So presumably.
        Yep, just wanted to highlight it to be clear.
      1. shiv@vishnu's Avatar
        shiv@vishnu -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
        Shiv, you may have missed this, so ill quote myself. As an enthusiast,and for the greater good, I am willing to set aside certain issues:
        I want you to come custom tune my car at a local dyno, try out the v5 on it. ill pay for it all, the new V5 ( with the competitors tune discount) and dyno time. again you have my info, lets do it asap. Id like to see how my car does on AFR's, and timing, and of course, the solved misfire problem. we can streamcast it live allday so noone can complain about half-truths and yada yada..
        The last time I announced a trip to NJ, you publicly threatened me with your guns and got banned from e90post for publicly implying that you would shoot me upon sight. So forgive me for not wanting to come face to face with your sociopathic nutty self. So you want to run a v5, purchase one, install it, and run it on the dyno. You will likely make more power than what you are making now. That's pretty ballsy asking me for a custom tune. You really are crazy, aren't you? Click here to enlarge

        Shiv
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
        So you want to run a v5, purchase one, install it, and run it on the dyno. You will make more power than what you are making now.
        Bold claim.
      1. Jimefam's Avatar
        Jimefam -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Well, the evidence is rather overwhelming in my opinion. We BMW tuners all saying the same thing. We have knowledge of what delaying the signal to offset can do. We have evidence of CPS offset cars running the Procede misfiring. We have evidence of BMS inducing a misfire due to CPS offset. How much more is really needed? Come to your own conclusion.

        Look at all the factors that can cause a misfire and you will know what can induce a misfire. Shiv himself has mentioned some of those. Let's not make it seem like the only way to cause a misfire is to run a Procede as that is ridiculous. However, there is a constant of CPS offset cars having misfires.

        This is why I was asking. "WE BMW tuners"? Honestly I only see you saying that on here and I remember reading you post a few weeks back if it was hard to be a tuner. That is why I bring up the question, because although you have hinted that some unnamed BMW tuners have told you what they think they have not posted on here or shown the slightest bit of evidence. If you had some runs from the same procede tuned CPS offset car misfiring and then disabled CPS and ran it with no misfires I would be far more swayed.

        I agree that Procede obviously has/had a problem with misfires as I found a few threads about it within the first few pages of that bimmerpost website. I just dont see any evidence. X car runs CPS offsets and misfires therefore CPS offsets cause misfires as "overwhelming" evidence doesn't pass the common sense test for me. For example I also saw two threads about JB cars that blew their engines, by your standard of evidence I could reasonably conclude that JB tunes cause blown engine(I dont as that is absurd) Just saying lets seem some factual evidence other than the opinions of faceless tuners before we jump the gun for headlines no?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        This is why I was asking. "WE BMW tuners"? Honestly I only see you saying that on here and I remember reading you post a few weeks back if it was hard to be a tuner.
        That was actually a typo, we "have" BMW tuners is what it should have been, corrected.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        If you had some runs from the same procede tuned CPS offset car misfiring and then disabled CPS and ran it with no misfires I would be far more swayed.
        You weren't here for the last time the topic of misfires was brought up and it just about caused World War III. Trying to get this information is dificult as yes, you would be swayed if a car had CPS and misfired and then disabled it and then it no longer misfired. Pretty clear cut right? And who is going to agree to this? If that is the case (which I believe it is) then all it does it hurt Vishnu's market perception. Now who will participate in that? Just showing a video of the misfires taking place caused chaos: http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...light=misfires

        You know they are taking place, as stated and shown with evidence. There are also hints that disabling it has been tried. Well, if no one thought it was a culprit why even bother with disabling it? Well?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        I agree that Procede obviously has/had a problem with misfires as I found a few threads about it within the first few pages of that bimmerpost website. I just dont see any evidence. X car runs CPS offsets and misfires therefore CPS offsets cause misfires as "overwhelming" evidence doesn't pass the common sense test for me.
        I would say keep reading but unfortunately you may be reading in the wrong place.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        For example I also saw two threads about JB cars that blew their engines, by your standard of evidence I could reasonably conclude that JB tunes cause blown engine(I dont as that is absurd) Just saying lets seem some factual evidence other than the opinions of faceless tuners before we jump the gun for headlines no?
        No, that is by your standard of evidence. To be honest, those are all old topics and although I realize you are catching up on this you should know those issues were heavily documented on several forums.

        I don't think there is any jumping of the gun here, this issue has been allowed to play out for some time while information and feedback was gathered. There has been plenty of time from when the correlation between CPS offset and misfires was first hinted at until now and I believe we have done our proper research. This thread was also forwarded to two tuners with an additional two reading it now and none of them except for Shiv have had any issues with it so I stand by it. If I was not prepared to, I would not have put it up.

        I believe a more accurate description would be to say this is being brought to attention way too late not way too soon.
      1. Jimefam's Avatar
        Jimefam -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        You know they are taking place, as stated and shown with evidence.There are also hints that disabling it has been tried. Well, if no one thought it was a culprit why even bother with disabling it? Well?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Hmm, so the CPS wiring can be removed? Does the tune still work fine without it or do tweaks need to be made to accommodate the bypass? Might be interesting to run a little experiment.

        This response above was posted by you 24 hours ago. You had never even heard of the CPS being disabled and didn't even know it could be done!




        You'll have to ask Shiv that. But I heard they've been bypassing it a lot lately. Click here to enlarge

        This response was by Terry from BMS. This is procede's DIRECT competition stating more admitted hearsay. I wonder if they have anything to gain by "hinting" at the danger and uselessness of a feature offered by the competition and not by them, a feature that they have "spent several late nights" in their words trying to emulate. HMMM this is why I'm doubtful about the extent of your "RESEARCH" into CPS, your basically repeating and even worse expanding on what a competitor/vendor hinted at and labeling it fact. It does a disservice to the BMW community to dismiss possible improvements for the wrong reasons. I have stated on here I am not a supporter of CPS or any EMS(except HALTECH) but if we rush to vague conclusions we may miss out on improving the offerings for these cars. Honestly if Shiv came on here and said "Yes CPS causes misfires, I tried it because currently BMW piggybacks have no timing control and for anyone familiar with tuning this is not acceptable" he would get my business because I prefer that to someone who is content with the status quo. Its the same as with my BMW, there have been many issues with my model of car(HPFP,ARS failure,Fuel Level Sensor) and the damn things just came out. I accept this and chose to buy these cars because BMW is on the cutting edge and thats where problems occur I support that and we are not even sure that is whats happening here.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        This response above was posted by you 24 hours ago. You had never even heard of the CPS being disabled and didn't even know it could be done!
        Ya... in response to Terry's post that the CPS had been disabled, right? Hence my comment that there are hints of it being disabled.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        This response was by Terry from BMS. This is procede's DIRECT competition stating more admitted hearsay.
        And take it as such. That is why I said there were hints, not actual proof. However, Shiv also did state in this thread trying no CPS offset which would lend strong support to the bypass being tried as stated, wouldn't it?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        I wonder if they have anything to gain by "hinting" at the danger and uselessness of a feature offered by the competition and not by them, a feature that they have "spent several late nights" in their words trying to emulate.
        BMS is going to be offering this feature. They aren't even the ones who have suggested all these issues actually it is users and tuners who aren't eve in the N54 market but who are familiar with BMW dme's.

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
        Honestly if Shiv came on here and said "Yes CPS causes misfires, I tried it because currently BMW piggybacks have no timing control and for anyone familiar with tuning this is not acceptable" he would get my business because I prefer that to someone who is content with the status quo
        Of course, but that is the problem he hasn't done that. Instead of doing the right thing and coming clean so to speak he continues to propagate this safey myth which has been used to discount competitors. Terry on the other hand offers users the choice. Which approach do you prefer?

        This is beyond Vishnu vs. BMS and any of that nonsense and well into what CPS offsetting really does to the DME.
      1. Sparky66's Avatar
        Sparky66 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        This is beyond Vishnu vs. BMS and any of that nonsense and well into what CPS offsetting really does to the DME.
        And what exactly is CPS offsetting really doing to the DME??
        Terry is only in the very early stages of grasping on how to properly implement CPS offsetting against a piggyback that has been using it from day one.
        It's only natural to have a learning curve on a new engine/DME platform and as far as implementation goes, it gets better with more testing and development.
        To discount it's usefullness as a tuning tool so quickly in the infancy of some tuners' testing is very nieve at best.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sparky66 Click here to enlarge
        And what exactly is CPS offsetting really doing to the DME??
        Uh, seriously?

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sparky66 Click here to enlarge
        Terry is only in the very early stages of grasping on how to properly implement CPS offsetting against a piggyback that has been using it from day one.
        It's only natural to have a learning curve on a new engine/DME platform and as far as implementation goes, it gets better with more testing and development.
        To discount it's usefullness as a tuning tool so quickly in the infancy of some tuners' testing is very nieve at best.
        Terry and BMS can do whatever he and BMS want to do. Not my business, not my concern. My concern is to inform users to the best of my ability of the complete picture of CPS offsetting. If that negatively impacts Vishnu, BMS, or whomever else, that is fine if it spares you any potential issues as well as helps you make a more informed decision.

        To consider CPS a proper tuning tool is naive at best. It has been way too long where people equate offsetting to pulling timing. They are not the same thing.
      1. Sparky66's Avatar
        Sparky66 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Terry and BMS can do whatever he and BMS want to do. Not my business, not my concern. My concern is to inform users to the best of my ability of the complete picture of CPS offsetting. If that negatively impacts Vishnu, BMS, or whomever else, that is fine if it spares you any potential issues as well as helps you make a more informed decision.

        To consider CPS a proper tuning tool is naive at best. It has been way too long where people equate offsetting to pulling timing. They are not the same thing.
        Exactly my point.......you are presenting CPS offsetting principles which have not been fully or "Completely" proven or discounted on your behalf as a viable and useful tuning parameter and accept a certain tuners results blindly as the final verdict and nail in the coffin. Till anyone can prove the validity of your comments as a non-tuner on this topic in relation to the associated "Misfires", it's fair to say that it is hearsay and unsubstantiated. I have never seen a misfire code or run in limp mode in the 4 years I have run a Procede at up to 17psi. The majority are in the same boat, so your claims are pretty fuzzy.
        No piggyback can match a Flash tune which can control timing fully..........no question there but CPS Offsetting is as close as we can get with timing control on a piggyback and in that regard the Procede presents itself better than any other piggyback tune out there.